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Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2006/10/26 11:34
From Gunpowder River, MD
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60 minutes did a small piece on the industry as a whole. They interviewed some salesman/invester from the gas industry.."Basically he said shhh-everything is going to be ok" too late indeed..

Posted on: 2011/2/13 10:43


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2010/1/7 0:41
From "THE VILLE"
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It wouln't make news unless it well known creeks IE Letort, Little J, Spring or Yellow Breeches. Then the the outdoor press would be outraged at this "single" case. And Orvis would have a fund raiser for the creek. Anti drillers would have Tom Skeritt, and he would be the spokesman.

Could you imagine If the marcellus deposit was found in Yellowstone. Sh*t drillers wouln't be allowed in the state.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 11:14
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Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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Regarding the photo of the low water on Fishing Creek behind the Lamar hatchery. Do you know that water is being taken for Marcellus operations in Fishing Creek anywhere upstream of that stretch? If so, please let us know.

If water for Marcellus is not being taken from the Fishing Creek watershed above that point, then the low water in the photo has nothing to do with Marcellus.

It's important to be accurate in your statements about Marcellus, to maintain credibility.

I have seen that same stretch of Fishing Cr. lower than shown in the photo, in fact completely dry, in drought periods, before the Marcellus drilling began.

There are 2 reasons that section gets very low, and even dry, during drought periods:

1) Natural sinks. There are 'losing" sections of Fishing Creek, where surface water sinks down into the limestone. Then the water comes back to the surface in springs further down the valley.

There are several of these losing stretches along the length of Fishing Creek. This also occurs in some other limestone streams.

In that section, a large amount of water goes underground in that big pool where the water drops over a ledge. You can hear the water flowing underground under the rocks on the east side of the creek.

There is another sink upstream from there. It is downstream from the big diversion dam. There is the remains of some sort of old concrete dam structure below that, and immediately below that a fair bit of water goes underground, on the west side of the creek.

2) The other reason is that a substantial amount of water is diverted out of Fishing Creek at the diversion dam above the hatchery. That water goes through the hatchery, then comes back into the stream through a return channel, which is upstream from the bridge that marks the lower end of the special regs area.

Where Fishing Creek goes under I80 a ways below Lamar, it commonly is completely dry. Not just during severe droughts, but during ordinary low water periods that occur every year.

It has nothing to do with Marcellus, unless you have information that water is being taken upstream from there. If you do have that information, please let us know, because there are people who will work to change that situation, if it exists.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 12:16


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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Sent an email about this last night.

If you are so inclined I would join some other forums and post this there also.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 16:54
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Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2011/2/12 14:41
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Quote:

double00 wrote:

My question is, as the regulatory agency who has jurisdisction over this, why can't you "demand it" ? Or at least regulate in that direction? Or is it simply that yours is not the agency who is in position to make such a demand. If that is the case, who is in such a position to make such regulations?



To be honest, I'm really not sure any agency can demand that. Owners of land bordering streams have inherent "riparian rights" based on principles of common law that make it very difficult, if not impossible, to flat-out prohibit water usage entirely. We can, as you suggest, regulate to discourage undesirable uses, and have tried to do so by incentivizing the use of lower quality streams through reduced application fees and quicker review times. But, in the end, the company makes a business decision about where to obtain water and how to move it. That's what they apply for, and that's what we review.

When we review the application, we will ask them to justify their need for the water and to demonstrate that they considered other sources such as the West Branch Susquehanna.

We do recognize that there is likely more we can do to discourage taking water from streams like Upper Three Runs, and I assure you we are putting a great deal of energy into determining what additional changes and protections are needed.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 19:25


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2010/1/7 0:41
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Thanks Salve' might have to go on fish erie but I dont think it'll get that good of reception.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 19:26
_________________
“If, when you pull a fly out you
don’t hear drums and can’t smell
chicken blood in the air, put it back
in the box, for if it is evil you seek,
then it can only be conjured with the
same.”



Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2006/10/12 14:03
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Mr. Dehoff,

Thanks again for the quick reply and furhter explaination. Thanks even more for helping protect these resources.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 20:04


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2010/4/11 20:34
From Pittsburgh
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Enough to bring a man to tears. This whole situation is truly sad.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 20:19
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Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 4492
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Regarding the photo of the low water on Fishing Creek behind the Lamar hatchery. Do you know that water is being taken for Marcellus operations in Fishing Creek anywhere upstream of that stretch? If so, please let us know.

If water for Marcellus is not being taken from the Fishing Creek watershed above that point, then the low water in the photo has nothing to do with Marcellus.

It's important to be accurate in your statements about Marcellus, to maintain credibility.

I have seen that same stretch of Fishing Cr. lower than shown in the photo, in fact completely dry, in drought periods, before the Marcellus drilling began.

There are 2 reasons that section gets very low, and even dry, during drought periods:

1) Natural sinks. There are 'losing" sections of Fishing Creek, where surface water sinks down into the limestone. Then the water comes back to the surface in springs further down the valley.

There are several of these losing stretches along the length of Fishing Creek. This also occurs in some other limestone streams.

In that section, a large amount of water goes underground in that big pool where the water drops over a ledge. You can hear the water flowing underground under the rocks on the east side of the creek.

There is another sink upstream from there. It is downstream from the big diversion dam. There is the remains of some sort of old concrete dam structure below that, and immediately below that a fair bit of water goes underground, on the west side of the creek.

2) The other reason is that a substantial amount of water is diverted out of Fishing Creek at the diversion dam above the hatchery. That water goes through the hatchery, then comes back into the stream through a return channel, which is upstream from the bridge that marks the lower end of the special regs area.

Where Fishing Creek goes under I80 a ways below Lamar, it commonly is completely dry. Not just during severe droughts, but during ordinary low water periods that occur every year.

It has nothing to do with Marcellus, unless you have information that water is being taken upstream from there. If you do have that information, please let us know, because there are people who will work to change that situation, if it exists.


I agree. I didn't think there were any wells south of the Susquehanna in that area.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 22:14


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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The Marcellus wells are in the Allegheny plateau. There are none in the Ridge-and-Valley area.

The dividing line in this area is basically the Bald Eagle Valley, from Tyrone to Milesburg to Lock Haven. Then following the W Br Susquehanna from Lock Haven to Williamsport.

But they are taking water from some places in the Ridge-and-Valley area and trucking it up there.

But I have not heard anything about them getting water from upper Fishing Creek.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 22:28


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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Posted on: 2011/2/13 22:30


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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You notice on that list that Fishing Creek is listed. That is from Fishing Creek near the mouth, from the country club down there.

Why they take water from there, rather than Bald Eagle Creek or the W Br Susquehanna, I don't understand. Fishing Creek holds wild trout even in that lower end.

And the trucking distance to the wells north of there would be shorter if they took it from Bald Eagle or the river.

Notice also that Bellefonte borough is selling water. That's from the Big Spring, which reduces the flow of cold water to lower Spring Creek, and Bald Eagle from Milesburg to the lake.

Why don't they just take the water from the lake at Bald Eagle State Park, and spare Spring Creek and Bald Eagle Creek?

Or take water from Beech Creek, which is not far away and which is polluted by mine acid?

Posted on: 2011/2/13 22:45


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13614
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All good points..I didn;t study the list or even do more than run over it once. I just had the link and thought you'd like to see it based on your post.

Posted on: 2011/2/13 22:47


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

Joined:
2009/9/14 12:48
Posts: 861
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The list indicates BFC as a source of surface water for something between 100,000-600,000 gallons per day (the actual number is unclear, but it appears six times at 0.1 mgd per listing). I don't know how that stipulates that they can't take surface water out of the narrrows. My guess is that they probably can take that amount from anywhere on BFC, but for logistical reasons there isn't much likelihood that they would go into the narrows. They need a place to park their trucks.

As for the aquifers, whether or not the narrows is effected depends on whether or not the cone of depression from pumping extends into that area, not necessarily whether any actual (water) well sites are upstream. This depends to a large degree on what the underlying geology looks like. It would not take a lot of drawdown to effect surface flows under low flow conditions. If you take water of the system faster than it is replenished, over time that will effect the whole aquifer.

My point was just that a lot of water is coming out of the watersheds in Central PA. Spring Creek and the Little J have been especially low, which is evidenced by the usgs records. These streams are all dependent on a relatively constant influx of groundwater to maintain summer flows. If you draw down groundwater levels over time, the streams don't get as much. These aquifers are the reason that we have great fishing in central PA. It is not acceptable to export water from our aquifers to other parts of the state for these sorts of operations. At least when a golf course pumps water, they put it immediately back on the golf course (with losses due to evaporation). Nothing is going to replace the water that is leaving central PA on trucks. Aquifers are not an infinite reservoir of water and they should not be treated that way.

Posted on: 2011/2/14 10:03


Re: A Clearfield Co. wild trout stream in trouble....

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Regarding Fishing Creek. The water they are taking is from very near the mouth, at the country club down below Rt. 150 near Mill Hall. I don't agree with that.

But I have not heard anything about Marcellus withdrawals being permitted in the Fishing Creek watershed anywhere above that point.

If anyone has any information that that is happening, let us know.

Posted on: 2011/2/14 11:01



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