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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2006/9/11 11:34
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 430
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Design is easy to copy but material not so much. In my years in manufacturing I learned more than I should have about plastics especially PVC. There can be a high degree of variation from vendor to vendor and also lot to lot if the vendor goes the cheap route.
There some tweakage that can be done to get plastics within quality specs but its limited to "shape" (ID/OD and/or taper) the other physical properties such as tensile strength etc are not easily replicated. Also quality testing on non-shape properties is destructive therefore it it done on a "1 of n" basis and the chances you get a random bad one is higher

Posted on: 2013/8/13 21:38


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2011/8/21 15:39
From Huntingdon
Posts: 287
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You might be able to get rio branded line and sell it for 20 dollars cheaper, but i would still buy the rio. The taper might be the same between the two but the technology will be in the rio. Like someone said earlier, the rio is probably second hand or line with less technology than the real rio branded stuff. Rio mainstream and rio avid have the same tapers, with that being said, there is a big difference between the two......for example agent X and many other added technologies that go into the lines.


To the original poster, rio avid is a great fly line if you dont care to spend 75 or so for higher end stuff.

Posted on: 2013/8/14 1:41


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

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2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

ryguyfi wrote:
That computer you're typing on is most likely reverse engineered from many other companies ideas. So you should probably throw that stolen technology in the garbage as well.


First of all, you have no idea what you're talking about. You're not CE, so don't even pretend that you're not.

Second, are you admitting that your lines are reversed engineered and might be violating proprietary patented material? Oh but you bought them from Rio, right....

Third, and this is an honest question that I hope gets answered, is why? Why don't you just own up to it? "Yes my lines are sourced from manufactures over seas. They're probably not as high as quality as some other more expensive lines, but bang for you buck, they're the best," or whatever else you want to say. It seems like, in the depths of your soul, you know what you're doing is wrong, which it may or may not be. You feel it is wrong though. So you cover it up. If that's the case, why don't you develop a line? Take the time, energy, and resources to take a project from concept to market. It's hard, really hard. But if hard work scares you, just be comfortable being a re-seller and realize your place.

Posted on: 2013/8/14 8:21


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6389
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I have owned up to it in other posts. I don't think it's wrong and I've shared the vision of the company as well. Yes it's outsourced, yes I don't have a hand in the products right now, but that's not the overall plan. I'll probably always have some products made overseas but do have plans to make a handful of products here in the states. I've been in contact with some line manufacturers in the US, as well as making some connections to machine a reel here in PA, but have to start somewhere with the limited capital I have to start things up. I'm not sure exactly how far the company will grow, but I'm sure I'll make some changes as time goes on. All I know is that the company is successful in less than a year of being opened and others don't think so poorly of our company structure.

The big issue I have with most people who oppose what I do is that there is a negativity of everything not made in the US in the fly fishing industry in their minds. Do they think this in every aspect of their life, or just this hobby? I'm sure the cars they drive, the clothes they wear, the cell phone in their pocket and many other items are made overseas, but it's only the fly fishing market that gets knocked for outsourcing. I understand I'm not the one designing and doing the R&D on it now, but that's just what's going on right now. I can't please everyone and don't plan on doing so. I'll please those who enjoy my products and do my best to make sure they hold up to my standard and if not take care of any issues.




p.s. to ponner and the rest of the board. Sorry for the hijack.

Posted on: 2013/8/14 9:40

Edited by ryguyfi on 2013/8/14 10:03:23
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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

slumdumb wrote:
Quote:
So if I bought lines direct from RIO's manufacturer, put my own company name on them and charged $20 less for them, then you still wouldn't buy them?


I would say you are full of Sh*t

Rio lines are made in their factory in ID by R&D'd and QA'ed by people who fish.... not some $5 line sourced by alibaba.com from some Asian factory produced by people who have no clue about fly fishing


So this reply, sparked my interest and I emailed Rio this morning and this is the reply I've gotten back from them:

Quote:
Thanks for your kind note and your inquiry. We do appreciate it.

As do many companies in America and frankly throughout the world, we have imitators who are trying to piggyback on the RIO brand. I do not know for sure what sites you are seeing, but the several I am aware of all emanate from a manufacturer who is based in Singapore and who then sells to a distributor in China. It has been this entity that has been the most visible in terms offering RIO like products that aren't made by RIO.

We are in the process of taking all the usual steps to obstruct or stop this activity, but as usual the legal wheedling is laborious and not particularly met with enthusiasm by the Chinese authorities. We have also thoroughly analyzed most of the lines they are producing and while we know they have ripped off our tapers almost exactly, there is nothing in the chemical makeup of their lines that comes close to what we are producing in terms of overall performance and durability.

I hope this helps you with your question. Again, thanks for your vote of support.

All the best,

[name redacted]


I thought I'd put this out in the public so people get this point of view too.

So where exactly are you buying your lines from then?

Posted on: 2013/8/14 12:21


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2012/12/19 9:58
Posts: 51
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Quote:
I have owned up to it in other posts. I don't think it's wrong and I've shared the vision of the company as well. Yes it's outsourced, yes I don't have a hand in the products right now,


The big issue I have with most people who oppose what I do is that there is a negativity of everything not made in the US in the fly fishing industry in their minds.


You really don't get it??? or are you trying to be deceitful?

there is a HUGE difference to an Outsourced product VS a cheap knock off.

EXAMPLE

ABEL SUPER SERIES REELS
http://www.bearsden.com/page47.html
designed and produced in the USA by people who fish
$600-$800 cost

VS this
http://leichifishing.en.alibaba.com/p ... _font_b_reel_b_font_.html


Funny... looks like the specs are copied (word for word at some points)... For a $40 reel


Then there is this
http://www.risenfly.com/collections/f ... /products/anakim-fly-reel
a $260 reel ($220 markup)
specs are cut and pasted from the chinese site, which is copied from abel

Posted on: 2013/8/14 12:25


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

ryguyfi wrote:
I have owned up to it in other posts. I don't think it's wrong and I've shared the vision of the company as well. Yes it's outsourced, yes I don't have a hand in the products right now, but that's not the overall plan. I'll probably always have some products made overseas but do have plans to make a handful of products here in the states. I've been in contact with some line manufacturers in the US, as well as making some connections to machine a reel here in PA, but have to start somewhere with the limited capital I have to start things up. I'm not sure exactly how far the company will grow, but I'm sure I'll make some changes as time goes on. All I know is that the company is successful in less than a year of being opened and others don't think so poorly of our company structure.

The big issue I have with most people who oppose what I do is that there is a negativity of everything not made in the US in the fly fishing industry in their minds. Do they think this in every aspect of their life, or just this hobby? I'm sure the cars they drive, the clothes they wear, the cell phone in their pocket and many other items are made overseas, but it's only the fly fishing market that gets knocked for outsourcing. I understand I'm not the one designing and doing the R&D on it now, but that's just what's going on right now. I can't please everyone and don't plan on doing so. I'll please those who enjoy my products and do my best to make sure they hold up to my standard and if not take care of any issues.




p.s. to ponner and the rest of the board. Sorry for the hijack.


Honestly, I don't think most people have a problem where it is manufactured, as long as the product is quality. My iPhone is manufactured entirely in China and is of exceptional quality.

What you've failed to mention is that these designs you're purchasing are often direct knock offs of Patented material (see previous post). That's my problem. You're circumventing the law that is designed to protect IP holders and not contributing anything in the way of improvements or alternative design.

Posted on: 2013/8/14 12:29


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2008/8/2 14:42
From Hershey, PA
Posts: 195
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Excellent point on the Iphone.

4wt or less and I'm buying the least expensive line that will easily flow through my guides and make a sub-30ft cast. 5wt lines and larger, where line speed, casting distance and control are critical...I'm spending the money and going with a premium line manufacturer.

.

Posted on: 2013/8/19 21:25
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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2010/6/19 16:43
From Clinton County, Pa.
Posts: 1741
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Myself, I buy the best line I can afford whether it's a 2 weight or an 8 weight. Good line can make a real difference in performance even on ultra-light flyrods.

Posted on: 2013/8/19 22:30
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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2013/6/18 18:55
From North Wales, PA
Posts: 27
Offline
I would suggest you take your rod to your local FF shop and test out some fly lines and see what casts best for you.

Posted on: 2013/8/28 20:57


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2006/9/13 22:36
From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
Posts: 5193
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I have played with all brands of lines and unless you are an expert, the average fly fisherman is not going to notice much on lines. i sell rio and i sell cheap lines and fish both of them. I tell people to bring their outfits in and we will check them out and look at the persons casting and give suggestions upon what we see. not everyone can cast as well as others or is an expert. (though alot think they are)

Posted on: 2013/8/29 12:08
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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2006/9/13 22:36
From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
Posts: 5193
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Quote:
Alibaba.com is not the place to buy fly lines


where in gods creation does the poster say he is looking on alibaba ???
He has asked about 2 well known companys... Duh!

Posted on: 2013/8/29 12:11
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So many Fish, So little time !!!
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Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 12923
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Personally, it's not so much about WHERE it's made, but by whom.

It may not be entirely accurate, but I kind of see 3 tiers. It's not so much about where it's made, but the makeup of the company.

Tier 1: Company ABC has an R&D department which designs reels. The designers get paid by company ABC. The reels are then physically made in a factory owned by company ABC, with employees who sign checks from company ABC. They machine their own bars. They cut their own cork, etc. And it is branded a company ABC reel. They don't "have" a manufacturer. They ARE a manufacturer.

Tier 2: Company DEF designed the reel with their own R&D people. But they use multiple subcontractors. So, instead of machining their own aluminum, they buy an aluminum bar and send it to a machinist to machine to their specifications. They do the same with a drag system and all the sub-parts. All the parts get shipped to them, and they do final assembly.

Tier 3: Company GHI takes a mass produced generic reel, or even buys them from the above companies. Rebrands them, and sells them. i.e. they do not make reels. They sell reels. They are a middle man. They may have options, i.e. can buy the generic reel with or without a sealed drag. But they do not "make" or even "design" anything other than the label. If they bought the top of the line, machined aluminum, sealed cork drag, etc., they still didn't design that. Merely chose it from pre-existing options.

I think it is possible to get acceptable, even good, quality from any of the above. It's also possible for a tier 1 to be in China and a tier 3 to be mostly American products. But we're drawn especially to tier 1. And for the others, you do have to watch out for shady practices, such as China's propensity to illegally copy IP, which can be then sold as cheap knock-offs, skirting the law and ultimately, stealing from those who are truly advancing the industry. IP exists to reward companies for coming up with new things. Removing that makes the industry go stagnant. But so long as it's either sold to them directly by the IP owner, or if generic, then using non-protected (>20 years old tech), then I have no issue with tier 3 either. They're merely filling a niche that the tier 1's and 2's purposely don't get involved in.

Posted on: 2013/8/29 16:04


Re: Which Lines to Buy?

Joined:
2009/12/19 18:09
From S.E. PA
Posts: 465
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RIO.

Posted on: 2013/9/1 21:50
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