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Re: Overlining or under?

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2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1914
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tomi - Can't speak for anyone else, but I do a lot of my fishing on VERY small, higher gradient Brookie streams. A lot of the casting is me standing on a ledge or rock in the plunge pool immediately downstream of the one I'm fishing. Most of my casting on these streams involves having about 10-15 feet of line out on average. Most rods, even Brookie rods, weren't rated for those conditions. The extra line weight helps load the rod with that little bit of line out, and I find it's easier to get the fly to turn over up to the head of the pool, or wherever it is I'm trying to get it to. In really tight situations I may be just "dapping" the fly down with only 5 or 6 feet of line out. The little bit of extra line weight just helps with this IMO, and keeps the line/leader/tippet from collapsing on themselves a little better I think. Could it be done with 4 wt line, sure, but it's easier and more effective with the heavier 5 wt line IMO.

One other reason, which doesn't really apply to overlining and loading the rod, is that I just like the lighter rod from a sport perspective. One of my 4 wts is very light for a 4 wt (It looks and feels more like a 2 or 3 wt IMO)...I generally use this one for throwing dries in the warmer months. A 6" Brookie is a lot more fun on this rod than my heavier 4 weight, or my 5 wt, etc.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 9:25


Re: Overlining or under?

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2010/6/9 12:35
From down the block from the Letort.
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If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked? They do make 'em...

Posted on: 2012/3/2 9:40


Re: Overlining or under?

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2008/9/12 12:41
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You can’t underline a rod with WF line to increase distance for the reason stated by Pete. A WF line after 30+/- feet turns into a thin running line and distance casting with a WF line is about aerializing the WF head and then shooting it for distance so you are actually doing yourself as disservice by underlining your rod. And if you are trying to false cast a WF line beyond the 30’ WF belly your cast is going to fall apart pretty quickly because the running line doesn’t have the strength to support and turn itself over. If you wish to add distance you should underline with a DT line but adding distance by switching to a 4wt DT line on a 5wt rod isn’t going to cut through the wind like a true 5wt because the mass in the line is less - you're still casting a 4wt line.

The reality is if you need to cast 50 feet on a continuous basis, buy a rod designed to do that and if you are fishing at close distances, buy that rod too. Tomi is correct, test the rod under the conditions you intend to use it.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 9:41


Re: Overlining or under?

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2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked? They do make 'em...


Yeah, I've tried glass, and considered it when buying my last 4 wt (the lighter of the two). Cabelas CGR line was in the mix. It was just a bit too slow for me. The action of both of my Brookie rods are mod/fast...the lighter of the two being a touch closer to the moderate end probably. With either, I'll still find myself throwing a small BH Bugger into a deep hole, or even fishing most of the day with one in the Winter. Glass was just too slow for that and my casting stroke I guess. In theory, I tend to agree w/pcray. Loading the rod properly will give you the action the rod was intended to produce. In my case, I want a mod/fast action, so IMO the best way to get that in close quarters fishing is to slightly overline a mod/fast rod.

Don't have a lot of experience with Bamboo, but the main downside there is cost. Don't wanna take that expensive of a rod into the close quarters of Brookie streams. I don't like to spend much more than $150 or so on a Brookie rod.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 10:01


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2006/9/21 0:02
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 4231
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
gulp....gotta agree with GW on this.

For those that are having to over or under line their rods. Didn't you test cast them before purchasing? I mean, if I'm looking for a 4wt brookie rod, then I'm gonna give it a workout in the lawn/parking lot w/ a 4wt line at the distances I plan to use it for. I just don't understand why you would need to change the spec'd line weight if you bought the right rod in the first place.


First of all - I've bought several of my rods by mail order or online.
Pretty hard to test cast them when you do that. Also, there's a difference between test casting a rod in a parking lot or lawn under perfect conditions. And actually fishing with it for awhile

I bought my 2 weight - a loomis IMX - from FFP 20 years ago. It was on closeout, and I got a great deal on it - mail order. Wasn't about to drive 3 hours to test cast it before hand.
And I fished it with the proper line for the first few years I had it. And it worked OK. Although I had some trouble on windy days, and on small streams where I wasn't casting long enough distances to load it fully.
So, I tried a 3 weight line on it next - and just like the overall performance better.
It's just personal preference

Posted on: 2012/3/2 10:26


Re: Overlining or under?

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13362
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Quote:
If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked?


A lot of what I do sounds almost the same as Swattie. And the answer to this is because you need high line speed and tight loops in tight places. You're casting under low hanging limbs and rhodo. Big open loops just aren't an option much of the time.

So you want high line speeds with very short distances of line off the tip. That's not a real easy combination to achieve. But short distances of heavy line weights combined with fast rods seem to do it for me.

Further, all of the specialty casts. Bow and arrow, modified rolls, etc. Stiffer rods do it better.

There ain't very many rods designed to do that. Most of the short rods have gone the way of the 2 and 3 weights. For these situations, where delicacy isn't of any concern whatsoever, I fail to see the advantage.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 12:28


Re: Overlining or under?

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2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19932
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Because there isn't one. Light rods are fun, but are far from optimal for tight spaces.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 12:54


Re: Overlining or under?

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2008/9/12 12:41
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This is an excerpt from Tom Morgan Rodsmiths Design Philosophy page on his website where he talks about rod design.

I've talked with hundreds of anglers about their rod preferences and, I've spent years thinking about rod design principles and talking with other knowledgeable rod designers about different actions. I've come to believe that there are three main rod actions: traditional "fast action" that has a stiff butt and a flexible tip, "slow action" with a stiff tip and flexible butt (or a rod that is overall too flexible for the line weight it is casting), and "progressive action" with a uniform increase in stiffness from tip to butt.

It is important to point out, I believe, that "fast action" has taken on a new meaning in recent years when applied to graphite rods. Most of today's rods have fast action, regardless of their bending pattern, because they are overall stiffer than rods of previous eras. In other words, most of the contemporary rods would have been rated to cast lines one or two sizes heavier in years past. Many of today's anglers started using these stiff, fast rods, not even realizing that there are different designs that may be better suited for their trout angling situations. In my opinion, many anglers of today's generation have never learned the joys of fishing with truly great rods that bend and flex as they should and thereby communicating back to the angler how the rod, line, leader, and fly are performing.

How rods bend under a load and how the stored energy flows through the rod as it unloads in a cast is what we consider to be rod action. Great rod action is one of those things in life that you know you like when you feel it, but it can be difficult to describe. However, from my experience, there are three attributes in rod design most prized by knowledgeable and accomplished anglers, regardless of the rod material. The first is smoothness of action. This means the rod loads and unloads when casting in a uniform manner from tip to butt without any "kicks" or "hinges". I have chosen the progressive action with a good balance between the tip and butt for all of my rods that provides this smooth action. This is what makes a rod feel sweet when you cast it. For graphite rods, another important aspect of this smoothness of feel is the ferrule design. My rods have a continuous taper from tip to butt with a sleeve ferrule designed into the tip. Many of today's graphite rods have a thin-walled tip that fits over a smaller diameter, thick-walled butt. Although this ferrule design allows for good production efficiency, it doesn't let the rod transmit the flow of energy in a smooth and continuous manner.

The second attribute is that the rod has the right amount of bend for its rated line size. Remember my previous observation that most rods today are too stiff or fast for their rated line size. It is extremely important for a rod to bend sufficiently to communicate to the angler how the line is behaving during casting. If it doesn't, the angler won't have the feel needed to make the accurate and delicate casts necessary to obtain a high level of angling proficiency. I have carefully designed these rods to have the correct stiffness for good feel and yet have sufficient power for a wide range of casting distances. Under normal circumstances, my rods won't cast a line one size heavier than they are rated to cast.

The third attribute in designing a rod is correct tip stiffness for each line size. This has always been easy to achieve with bamboo rods because the power fibers are on the outside and the strips are tapered from the inside, but, until fairly recently, it has been difficult to do with graphite. Now graphite blank-making technology has become very sophisticated, and it allows me to design very small diameter tips. These small diameter tips have the suppleness needed to form loops correctly while casting. They also protect tippets when setting a hook and playing fish. This is very important, as anglers tend to use lighter tippets and smaller flies to fool wary fish on many of the heavily fished waters.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 13:07


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2010/6/9 12:35
From down the block from the Letort.
Posts: 889
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pcray:
Quote:
That's not a real easy combination to achieve.


Yeah, doesn't sound like it is for you with the gear choices you've made and your casting style. Fast rods aren't needed for tight loops, slower rods do not automatically mean only open loops. I find it odd that you're using, say a fastish 4wt, but then you need to 'slow it down' with a 5 or 6wt line to achieve your goal of tight loops. You need the fast rod, but yet you're slowing it down to get it to work for you? Why does that sound backwards when you could just get a slower paced rod to begin with? Curious how well that overlined rod handles the 5 or 6wt lines once you get more than 30-40' in the air?

Personally, I'd rather just get the rod that's been designed for the task I'd like it for and matches my casting style...then I know it'll work in close and that it'll also handle further distances without having to worry about changing lines from one day to the next.


And just to add, no beef with you pcray and your preferences, to each his own, it's just that this constantly perpetuated marketing myth that you need a fast rod for tight loops gets old...

Posted on: 2012/3/2 14:20


Re: Overlining or under?

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2008/9/12 12:41
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I think the issue/myth with tight loops and fast action rods has more to do with the fact that most fly casters overpower/muscle the rod to compensate for poor timing in order to keep the line in the air and fast action rods are more forgiving and better able to handle overpowering than medium or slow action rods.

Loop tightness or openness has nothing to do with the action of the rod but rather casting mechanics, good timing, and stopping the tip abruptly and not letting it drift all over the place on the release, which is what causes open loops whether intentional or unintentional, and most casters are also guilty of unintentional tip drift.

So if you take a slow or medium action rod and overpower it, you are causing the rod tip to deflect/bend too much and couple that with tip drift on the release and your tip is essentially out of control and you have no control over what your line is doing so it is easy to see why the myth exists that slow/medium action rods are not able to cast tight loops. It's not that they can't it's just that fast action rods compensate for less than ideal casting technique much better than slow or medium action rods.

Up to distances of about 45 feet I can cast tight or open loops equally well with my 9’ 5wt medium action rod, my 9’ 6wt fast action rod and my 7.5’ 4/5wt “fast action” boo rod, that most people would say is slow action, yet each requires different timing. Now at distances greater than 45 feet, maintaining a tight loop on the 5wt medium action and 7.5’ boo rod starts to become difficult simply because neither of these rods were designed to handle that much line in the air.



Posted on: 2012/3/2 15:12


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 1619
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:


Now, use 5 wt line for all of those distances, and NOW you're rod speed changes with distance. Throw 60 ft of line with a 5 wt on a rod weighted for a 5 wt, and suddenly you got yourself a SLOW rod. It's overloaded.



Not quite.

I suspect you're are saying the rod slows in action becauase you start to see flex in the butt section. However, This does not make it a slower rod as with the increased load, deflection in the tip area is also increasing dramatically and will do as you continue to add load. Eventually, the casting characteristics of the rod will feel very unpleasant. In fact, this is what is sometimes described as the tip "collapsing" or similiar terms. But the result is not a change in action, but simply more dramatic deflection.

Kev

Posted on: 2012/3/2 15:45


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13362
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Quote:
Curious how well that overlined rod handles the 5 or 6wt lines once you get more than 30-40' in the air?


Keep in mind that the rod in question is a specialist rod, I certainly don't do that with all my rods. I use it ONLY for tight brookie streams. It will NEVER have more than 20' in the air. And most of it's time will be spent with roughly 10' of actual fly line (not including leader) in the air.

Quote:
Personally, I'd rather just get the rod that's been designed for the task I'd like it for and matches my casting style...then I know it'll work in close and that it'll also handle further distances without having to worry about changing lines from one day to the next.


That paragraph is one big major contradiction. I DO use a rod thats designed for the task. But wanting a rod designed for a specific task (specialist), and wanting a rod that'll handle multiple tasks (jack of all trades) are competing desires. Jack of all trades means master of none.

I don't usually go from some deep woods thick brookie stream to a big wide open stream without at least stopping at the car in between, so having both in the car works just fine.

And regarding poor casting mechanics, in tight places, you almost never have good mechanics. You often can't even do a full swing of the rod, it's often half casts and push casts and the like, where you want to get as much power in the line as you can with as short a stroke as you can. If you CAN do a full swing, then ANY rod with ANY line will do you just fine to cast short distances. I target my gear to better do the hard things, not the easy ones.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 15:53


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4423
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
If that's the case then, then why not buy a slower glass or cane rod that will work for you with only 10-20' feet out the tip in the first place and still have enough backbone to reach out 40-50' if asked? They do make 'em...


Thinking the exact same thing!

Posted on: 2012/3/2 16:12


Re: Overlining or under?

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13362
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PennKev,

Yeah, you are correct. Nevertheless, we all have a distance where the cast falls apart. That distance is indeed shorter with a heavier line. You don't overline a rod if you're even going to approach that point.

Posted on: 2012/3/2 16:16


Re: Overlining or under?

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2008/9/12 12:41
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As PennKev states, rod action is rod action irrespective of line weight. Action is how the rod flexes or bends as the load increases and increasing line weight doesn’t change how it flexes or bends it only increases the load per foot of line. Assuming 15 feet or 5wt line weighs the same as 25 feet of 4wt line, the rod doesn’t know the difference between the two (same load is in the air) and how it flexes will be identical with either line. So I do think it is incorrect to say overlining causes a fast action rod to slow down, it doesn’t, it simply causes the rod to flex more per foot of line and more flex will translate to better feel, within reason.

Pcray, I think the statement you made that is a bit confusing or contradictory is you are saying you like or need a fast action rod to accomplish the kinds of short casts you need in tight quarters but then say you like to overline it to “slow” the rod action down (a better term would be to cause the tip to flex more). I think Tomi’s comment is if you are overlining the rod to “force” the tip to flex more, why not just get a rod with a more flexible tip and use the correct line.


Posted on: 2012/3/2 16:34



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