Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 2 (3) 4 5 »


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/2/18 10:20
Posts: 1266
Offline
Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:

JustFish wrote:
On really windy days I can see my line arc like a sail on a sailboat. It definitely causes drag in that situation. I could see it not being a factor if you fish wilderness streams with trees all around you.


I'm not talking about a little arc in your line. I'm talking about letting a nice cast fly and then all of a sudden it just stops and falls out of the air as it hits a wall of wind. Or casting north and having your line turn east in mid cast...better keep you head down if you are throwing big heavies when that happens.


I knew what you were talking about. I know you fish a lot of lakes. I was referring to my own personal experiences.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 9:25
_________________
Those who have no vices usually have some really annoying virtues!


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/9/12 12:41
Posts: 726
Offline
Tom is right. An unexpected gust occurs and who knows where the line and fly ends up.

The ability to cast a 3 weight in windy conditions is a function of line weight, line speed and loop size. The faster line speed generates more forward momentum and the tighter the loop results in less leading edge surface area of the fly line subject to wind resistance.

Traditional, medium action rods are not designed to generate high line speed while still maintaining a tight loop unless you are a very accomplished caster (think Lefty Kreh-like abilities). These rods are designed for what I consider to be 3 weight territory – short delicate presentations in little to no wind. And for delicate presentations you don’t want high line speed and tight loops and the leader turning over completely and slamming the fly to the water – you want a somewhat open loop that allows the fly to gently land on the water with as little line disturbance as possible.

Fast action 3 weight rods can generate the necessary line speed and still maintain a tight loop, which will help cut through the wind. You’re not going to make a 50 foot cast into the wind with any 3 weight rod but a fast action 3 weight rod in fairly capable hands can probably cut through 30 feet of headwind. However, it that really what a 3 weight should be used for? Personally I don’t think so and think heavier lines are more suited for fishing these conditions.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 9:30


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/2/18 10:20
Posts: 1266
Offline
Quote:

fishrich wrote:
For fishing in pa , If you could have one rod line weight what would it be? The reason I ask is I am looking for my first quality rod and I am stuck between 3 and 4 wt. Looking for some pros and con for each one

Thanks
Fishrich


A 3 wt. isn't an all around rod for PA or a first rod for a beginner. It sucks in the wind(for a beginner), casting distance for bigger streams is compromised vs. a heavier rod.

Fishrich if you fish a lot of smaller streams start out with a 4 wt. b/c you still can get away with it other places. If you fish a lot of Centre County larger streams I would go with a 5 wt.

Good Luck

Posted on: 2009/3/24 9:38
_________________
Those who have no vices usually have some really annoying virtues!


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2007/9/19 8:05
From Malvern USA
Posts: 445
Offline
Fishrich, what other rods do you currently own? It sounds like this is not your first rod. That would have alot to do with what you want. Also, being in Delaware County, you may doing most of your fishing in Ridley and the surrounding area. This is also amjor factor in your decision.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 9:47


Re: Line wt debate
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8612
Offline
Green Weenie makes some good points about casting in the wind, but taking the wind out of the discussion how ‘bout these assertions?

Fast rod….tight loop….less delicate presentation.
Slow rod….open loop…delicate presentation.

3wt lighter….more delicate presentation.
5wt heavier…. less delicate presentation.

Huh? When the fly cast is made, the line straightens out, all the energy of the cast dissipates when the fly line and leader are over the water, and the line gently falls to the water. How the line got there, fast or slow line speed, tight loop or open loop, the result is the same. No?

Posted on: 2009/3/24 10:07


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13614
Offline
Fast rod….tight loop….less delicate presentation.
Slow rod….open loop…delicate presentation.

3wt lighter….more delicate presentation.
5wt heavier…. less delicate presentation.

I disagree with all four of those being any kind of rule. They may be more likely but as you said they all fall about the same when it all stops in the air.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 10:13


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/1/20 22:58
Posts: 101
Offline
To answer the original poster’s question.

Last year my primary rods were a Cabelas 8.5’ 3 wt FT+ and a Z-axis 8.5’ 4 wt. Both are considered fast but not ultra fast. They both are equipped with SA Mastery GPX lines. So far this year I’ve been primarily using my 4 wt since the 3 wt is actually my oldest grandson’s rod.

My home streams are the Tully, Manatawny, and Hay Creeks. On these streams the 3 wt was my favorite. Unfortunately, I bought the FT + on closeout and when I went back to buy another FT+ they were all gone. My 4 wt does the job nicely and I’m sure a 5 wt would also get the job done. I like lighter rods for their physical weight, the enhanced enjoyment when fighting fish and ability to apply more pressure to a fish when using lighter tippets. You can accomplish some of these same objectives by using slower action or more expensive rods and other configurations but I prefer lighter rods. I have three 3wt rods of various actions and lengths. The FT + is the fastest, longest and offers the most utility.

Last spring I fished Pine and Lt. Pine creeks. The 3wt worked very nicely on Lt. Pine. However, I used a 5 wt on Pine when the wind kicked up. I would have used a heavier rod if I had one. I’m not very good at casting into the wind so it’s easier for me go up in rod weight.

The FT+ has more 20”+ fish than any of my other rods. Mostly because I fished it and both my grandsons used it a lot last year. These fish were taken from the Lt. Schuylkill, Tully, and a private pond.

Someone made comment on what would happen if a musky was hooked up on a 3 wt. That brings up a good point. I believe the 3 wt is best balanced for tippets of 4x and smaller. That way you know your tippet will break long before your rod. So I wouldn’t recommend using a 3 wt for steelhead on 2x tippets. The 3 wt will also be less forgiving if you fight large fish by lifting your rod overhead and create a very sharp angle between rod and line. Basically, you’re fighting the fish with the tip of the rod rather than the butt and this can result in a snapped rod. You can break a 5 wt the same way but the heavier rod should take more abuse.

At this point in time (I’m constantly updating my views) I feel the three weight rod offers a great combination of enjoyment and utility on the size streams that I normally fish. It’s up to you to decide what will work on your waters.

I don’t believe there is a best rod that will cover all PA trout fishing but an 8.5’ or longer rod in 5/6wt will certainly do almost everything for trout (or bass or Steelhead) in PA it just may not be as much fun and for me fishing is all about the fun factor.

Good luck on your search. And good luck on that whole One Rod Theory. I had just one rod once. I think I was 10.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 11:10


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2006/9/12 12:07
From Berryville Virginia
Posts: 327
Offline
I’ll walk back to the truck to pick up another rod to fish a section of stream or different line weight or length. I know crazy. But one rod, if you took all of them and only had one that rod would be a 7’6” 5 wt.


Joe E

Posted on: 2009/3/24 12:23


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/9/12 12:41
Posts: 726
Offline
You are correct if you use the same 3 weight line, the same length leader, the same fly, impart the same line velocity, shoot equal amounts of line for a total cast of say 30 feet in length, and cast at the same height over the water. Assuming all this occurs, absolutely, both lines will hit the water with the same energy no matter whether cast from an ultra fast, fast, medium or slow action rod – graphite or bamboo. However, in practice that’s not what happens.

What casts a fly is the line’s momentum. The mass of the line is constant no matter what rod you spool it on so what does change is line velocity.

Fast action rods generally are better suited to aerialize more line, cast for distance and cut through the wind with higher line speeds and tighter loops, while medium action rods are better suited to throw shorter casts. Fast action rods are generally more difficult to load at close ranges and many times in order to load and “feel” the rod, the caster increases line speed and by increasing line speed momentum is increased. Medium action rods are much easier to load and “feel” and at close distances the result is a slower and more relaxed casting motion, which results in a slower line speed and therefore less momentum.

So what happens on say a 25 foot cast is the velocity of the line cast from a fast action rod generally ends up being faster than that of a medium action rod, which means the cast from the fast action rod has more momentum which must be dissipated. Assuming the length of line cast and the fall distance to the water being equal, the fast action rod will hit the water with more energy simply because equal amounts are dissipated during the cast but the fast action cast starts with more energy so therefore, more is left at the end of the cast. Many times a line that is cast too fast for the distance completely straightens out, snaps back towards the casters and falls to the water with a big plop. You can do that with either rod but generally speaking and from working with and observing many casters, the tendency of many with a fast action rod, especially when working at close distances, is to impart too much line speed, which results in an excess of momentum and therefore a less delicate presentation that with a medium action rod.

As for loops, you don’t want tight loops completely straightening out your leader especially when fishing dry flies. If you’re using a 12 foot leader that has a 4 foot 6x tippet section you don’t want the leader fully turning over and going straight - you’ll get drag immediately. Ideally you want the tippet section not completely unfolding and kind of piling or lying in a ‘S’ curve.

Tight loops also result in less wind resistance. If you were to look at a tight loop cast coming directly at you, the leading edge of the line (the front edge of the ‘U’ you see coming at you) may be 2 feet or less high. A more open loop may be 4 feet or more high. Less surface area of the leading edge of the line (2 feet in the tight loop cast) pushing through the wind means less resistance, which means less energy is dissipated by the wind during the cast. Therefore, a tight loop cast at a close distance won’t dissipate as much energy as an open loop and is more prone to not being delicate. Not that it cannot be done but it is more prone to not being delicate.

As for line weights, lighter line is used when more delicate presentations are required. You’re generally using smaller flies, casting at close distances and in slower, clear, calm water where you want the line to land gently and minimize surface disturbances. A 5 weight line simply weighs more per linear foot than a 3 weight line so if you drop a 10 foot section of 3 weight and 5 weight line from 10 feet above the water, the 3 weight line will land softer on the water because it has less potential energy to start with. Potential energy equals mass (3 weight has less) times gravity (constant for both) times height (10 feet for both). The lighter line is also more susceptible to wind resistance, which further decreases the speed of the line hitting the water.

So my statements are more generally speaking. If you can create the same conditions it doesn’t matter what rod you use the result will be the same but most people cannot. That is why medium action rods are better suited for working up close and fast action rods are better suited for working at greater distances. That is also why lighter lines are more delicate than heavier lines, too.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 13:18


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13614
Offline
Quote:
That is why medium action rods are better suited for working up close and fast action rods are better suited for working at greater distances.


I just read an article about fishing stone fly nymphs that said exactly the opposite. Just sayin'

Posted on: 2009/3/24 15:19


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2007/7/2 19:40
Posts: 15011
Offline
dang-this getting to be a habit-sucks
but I gotta go with Tom
Spinning or fly casting medium action for distance-

Posted on: 2009/3/24 15:36
_________________
Obstrification> The fine art of confusing liberals.


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13614
Offline
Well it seems we agree on what really matters. fishing

Posted on: 2009/3/24 15:38


Re: Line wt debate
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8612
Offline
Many equate fast action with power. Not necessarily, fast action means the rod, because of its taper and higher modulus graphite (usually), bends at more the tip to cast the line while a slow action rod bends near the butt with the same power application. The FA rod arcs less and creates a tighter loop than the SA rod. A fast action rod can cast a long line because as the line lengthens and weight increases, has a reserved power and the rod bends deeper to cast the line, while a slower rod generally has nothing left to give for longer casts.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 15:44


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2007/7/2 19:40
Posts: 15011
Offline
Advantages of Fast Action Fly Rods
Longer Casts - A fast action fly rod is ideal where the angler needs to make consistently long casts.

Landing Large Fish - A fast action fly rod makes it much easier, and quicker, to land very large fish.

Windy Conditions - Due to the high line speed generated by fast action fly rods, casting in windy conditions is much easier and more effective using a fast action fly rod - especially if used in conjunction with advanced casting techniques that help reduce some of the effect of wind resistance.

Quick Casts - The stiffness of fast action fly rods allow for very quick casts - something that is often appreciated by advanced anglers since more casts allow for more potential fish to be caught.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
just because we agree doesn't mean we are right-lol
Afish-wins this one
Since I am into spinning now they say mh for distance-not same as fast-

Posted on: 2009/3/24 15:59
_________________
Obstrification> The fine art of confusing liberals.


Re: Line wt debate

Joined:
2008/9/12 12:41
Posts: 726
Offline
A well made fast action rod should flex near the tip even more than a medium action rod. However, the problem with most fast action rods (excepting high end rods like Sage Z-Axis, Winston Biix, etc.) is the tip is too stiff because mfg use larger diameter mandrels resulting in extra material because overall it is easier and less expensive to make a straight rod this way – but the tip section is too stiff for the rod and it doesn’t protect tippets nor allow “feel” when working in close. This results in most fast action rods being underrated by at least 1 line size and difficult to load at close ranges.

A well made slower action rod will actually have a slightly stiffer tip than a fast action rod but it will bend much easier into the midsection. However, a well designed medium action rod shouldn’t be so soft in the butt section that it bends into the handle because then it doesn’t have reserve power to make a reasonably long cast.

The major casting difference between medium and fast action rods is softer rods are generally more difficult to cast than stiffer rods simply because most people have a fast casting technique and end up overpowering a medium action rod with their own strength, as opposed slowing down and letting the rod load and do the work (timing and technique is everything with a slower action rod). So, for most people faster action rods are easier to cast and control especially at longer distances because they don’t deflect as much as a medium action rod when physically overpowered and are more forgiving on mistimed casts. With a medium action rod when you start to stretch your distance you really need to let the rod load and there is significantly less margin for error in your technique.

Posted on: 2009/3/24 16:43



« 1 2 (3) 4 5 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
What kind of streams do you primarily fish?
Approved Trout Waters (Stocked Fish)
Class A Wild Trout Streams
Special Regulation Areas
Wilderness Trout Streams
No Preference All Trout Streams
120 total votes!
The poll will close at 2014/4/30 15:00
3 Comments
USGS Water Levels





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com