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Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
Posts: 1257
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Quote:

PennKev wrote:
They really aren't as fragile as your post would make them seem.


The larger wt rods really are... I've broke them numerous times, always right in the middle of landing a large fish. I have not had as much an issue with the lighter weight rods.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 12:59
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
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Quote:

PatrickC wrote:
Quote:

PennKev wrote:
They really aren't as fragile as your post would make them seem.


The larger wt rods really are... I've broke them numerous times, always right in the middle of landing a large fish. I have not had as much an issue with the lighter weight rods.



That's a totally differnt stuation than what you describe in your previous post and one that really puts your fish fighting technique in question. One or two broken rods, yeah maybe you can covince us that it is the rod, but "numerous" rods while landing fish?

Posted on: 2013/4/29 13:14


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Mainly on account of never owning the latest and greatest graphite technologies, I don't have any personal experience.

That said, I've heard the same thing. And it makes sense from a materials standpoint, but is very likely highly brand/model dependent.

First, a general rule of all materials, including graphite and resins, is the stronger you make something, the less ductility/toughness it can have (i.e. it's more brittle). The definition of "high modulus" is stronger. For instance, diamond is the hardest/strongest material on earth. But it's also not tough at all. Hit it with a hammer, and the hammer wins, resulting in diamond dust!

To make matters worse, higher modulus graphite allows a rod maker to make a rod lighter without sacrificing the speed of the action. They do this by thinning the walls, and perhaps stiffening the resin. The higher stiffness allows you to have the stiffer rod with less material. But in addition to being more brittle, the thinner walls further lower the damage tolerance, i.e. a little nick has a greater effect.

That said, a maker could take it the other way too. Even if the graphite is more brittle, you could soften the resin, allowing the graphite to supply more of the stiffness. Then you could add MORE sheets of thinner graphite, even crosshatching the directions. The result would be a rod that probably would have similar action and weight as previous rods, but is more damage tolerant and nearly industructible. i.e. an improved Ugly Stick.

There are always trade-offs. I always say, picture a see-saw. You can gain one at the expense of the other, and pick your balance point. Newer, modern materials don't change the fundamental trade off. They raise the fulcrum a little.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 13:32


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2009/7/29 10:25
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OP: "when I look at the really expensive ones in the shop I can't seem to feel any difference."

fwiw, the guesses I make in a shop or in the yard about how a rod will fish on a stream haven't been that good.

No fish to spook with a heavier line in the yard. And the 15-35 ft range where I catch small stream trout looks like nothing in a yard. Mostly sidearm casting out there, etc.



Posted on: 2013/4/29 13:55


Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
Posts: 1257
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Quote:

PennKev wrote:

That's a totally differnt stuation than what you describe in your previous post and one that really puts your fish fighting technique in question. One or two broken rods, yeah maybe you can covince us that it is the rod, but "numerous" rods while landing fish?


Yes, that's probably it....I don't know how to fight fish. I'd appreciate a lesson from you any time you are willing

It's the only rod I have ever broken. I have landed thousands of steelhead, LR browns, and salmon on the fly. Never had an issue except with the Helios on steelhead and salmon. The conditions of steelhead and salmon fishing are just to rough for the Helios unless you have the thing in a boat and never walk through the woods or lay it on the bank (unsheathed). It's just a rod that has to be babied. If you have it on a boat and protect it from nicks and never hit the rod with a heavy fly on a poor cast...it will work fine.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 14:14
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 1619
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I call it like I see it.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 14:35


Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
Posts: 1257
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Quote:

PennKev wrote:
I call it like I see it.


Exactly when did you see me fish? Assumptions and seeing....2 different things.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 18:14
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2006/11/2 8:50
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I've seen two people fishing big name, expensive modern graphite rods cast and hook some obstruction, then jerk on the rod to try to loosen the fly, and snap the rod a little bit below the tip.

I don't think that is likely to happen with the more "old school" fly rods. Many of the newer expensive rods are higher modulus, which gives you more line speed. But it makes them more brittle. That's the tradeoff.

And they are thinner walled than rods in the past, making them lighter, which makes them enjoyable to cast. But thinner walled rods are more likely to fail. It's a weight vs durability tradeoff.

I talked to a someone who guides in Alaska and he said the rod breakage rate is very high up there with people using the high modulus thin walled type of fly rod. Not surprising at all. For that type of fishing, you'd be better of with a rod that is maybe not quite as much of a "rocket" but that can take some abuse.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:29


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2010/5/28 0:25
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troutbert,

You hit the nail right on the head. Sacrifice an enth of an ounce by making rods with thinner walls, thereby selling more rods so a manufacturer can claim their rod as the lightest, newest, greatest, fastest.

No thank you, I'll take my "antiquated" rods any day. Take a licking and keep on ticking. Somehow I can cast them and catch plenty of fish.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 20:12


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2009/7/29 10:25
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different issues here: cost, weight, durability, etc.

OP asked if there really is a difference in graphite rods? Imho, yes. Then mentioned "really expensive ones"... I think the best of the middle ground is better for most fishing trips.

there is a lot of room between basic and megabuck. imho, some new rods that cast very well are mid-priced and a bit heavy, not expensive and superlight. echo carbon.

my 7'3" echo carbon two weight weighs three ounces, versus the two-ounce weight of my mystic 7'3" two weight. the echo was recently out there as a $125 closeout, mystic would be twice as much. echo is an 8, mystic is a 10 (a 2pc wonder for my trips for spooky wild browns on dries).

I once broke an echo carbon tip by hitting a branch with the last few inches of the rod in mid cast. they charged me $35.

I fish a lot and would rather use a rod that is more enjoyable to cast, plus with the downright scary accuracy of an echo carbon I should catch more fish.

PA trout arent going to break rods very often. I am something of an expert at putting flies in trees, and have never broken a rod tip pulling one out with any fly rod... (knot leader or fly has to be weak link, not rod tip... worst case, point the rod at the fly before you pull so the rod isnt stressed)

if you look up the fly fish ohio great two weight shootout, one reviewer summarized the echo 2:

"The rod handled the DT2 and the WF3 equally well. Fly size didn't seem to matter (within reason) and the outfit was accurate to a fault. In my notes I wrote "I feel everything about the cast and can do tricks - amazing reach and puddle casts, awesome change-of-direction casts and very, very good roll casts to whatever distance I need." I went on to say "If you aren't delivering the fly with delicacy and precision, it's you and not the rod." This stick has great fish feel, but I felt it to be just a touch soft in that last bit of butt strength. I noted "good choice for small trout or bigger fish on calm waters." Finally, my last sentence in my casting notes simply said "I love this fly rod."

I agree, that is very much my experience, and the echo was $170 msrp before the $125 closeouts... I also have a 7'6" echo 3w, great caster as well.


Posted on: 2013/4/30 8:12

Edited by k-bob on 2013/4/30 8:27:45
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Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2009/12/2 19:56
From SE Pa
Posts: 320
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Quote:
troutbert,

You hit the nail right on the head. Sacrifice an enth of an ounce by making rods with thinner walls, thereby selling more rods so a manufacturer can claim their rod as the lightest, newest, greatest, fastest.

No thank you, I'll take my "antiquated" rods any day. Take a licking and keep on ticking. Somehow I can cast them and catch plenty of fish.

+1 ...... Madison Avenue at work, employing every means possible to separate the customer from their money.

Posted on: 2013/4/30 20:42


Re: Graphite Rod differences

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2009/7/29 10:25
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"Madison Avenue at work, employing every means possible to separate the customer from their money."

right, every posible means including improving things. :)


Posted on: 2013/5/1 10:07


Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2008/6/25 9:41
From Pgh
Posts: 1213
Online
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
I've seen two people fishing big name, expensive modern graphite rods cast and hook some obstruction, then jerk on the rod to try to loosen the fly, and snap the rod a little bit below the tip.


Ironically, I bought a used Sage VPS about 5 years ago thinking that it was an older and therefore more durable rod. Wrong! I snapped the tip section for the third time last year. I haven't even sent it back yet for repairs. If anybody wants to buy a VPS490 with a broken tip, let me know.

Lesson learned: Older rods do not necessarily equate to more durable rods... no matter how end or low end the name.

Posted on: 2013/5/1 10:50
_________________
"I used to like fishing because I thought it had some larger significance. Now I like fishing because it's the one thing I can think of that probably doesn't." --John Gierach


Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6022
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Quote:

greenghost wrote:
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
I've seen two people fishing big name, expensive modern graphite rods cast and hook some obstruction, then jerk on the rod to try to loosen the fly, and snap the rod a little bit below the tip.


Ironically, I bought a used Sage VPS about 5 years ago thinking that it was an older and therefore more durable rod. Wrong! I snapped the tip section for the third time last year. I haven't even sent it back yet for repairs. If anybody wants to buy a VPS490 with a broken tip, let me know.

Lesson learned: Older rods do not necessarily equate to more durable rods... no matter how end or low end the name.


Try to find an old Cortland rod. You could thrash elephants with it and never break it.

Posted on: 2013/5/1 13:24


Re: Graphite Rod differences

Joined:
2008/1/21 13:28
From South Central PA
Posts: 823
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OP said: Quote:
Is there truly a noticable difference in graphite rods? I have a 5 yr. old IM6 5 wt. rod and was thinking maybe I should get a new one but when I look at the really expensive ones in the shop I can't seem to feel any difference.


I don't know what it is about the extra 6 inches, but a great feeling 9 footer is a rare pleasure, and being rare, you have to pay up for it. Yet a great feeling 8.5 footer is common. Doesn't mean there aren't any dogs--you still have to swing them--but if your mind automatically equates big water with a 9 ft, you might try the 8.5 and see if the easier swing doesn't more than compensate for the 6 inches of reach.

So out of curiosity, is your IM6 an 8.5 footer or shorter? If so, you are happy with it because it's a nice rod at a length that is, apparently, not that hard to make at an affordable price and still feel great.

Posted on: 2013/5/1 14:01



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