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Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Not to hi-jack the thread, but would any of you more experience rod gurus recommend throwing a 3 wt line on the 2 wt?


Absolutely. Even a 4, 5, or a 6 wt. Depending on the distance you wish to cast.

A rod is designed to load with a certain weight of fly line beyond the tip. Now, that weight is both a function of the line weight (weight/distance), as well as how much line you have out to begin with.

A cannot verify the accuracy of this, but I've always heard that rods are rated for 30 ft of fly line beyond the tip (not including leader). And fly lines are rated for the 1st 30 feet of the taper.

Based on standard weight charts, the following are all equal:

30 feet of 2 wt line
24 ft of 3 wt line
20 ft of 4 wt line
17 ft of 5 wt line
15 ft of 6 wt line

Now, remembering that this is distance of fly line not including leader, picture yourself fishing your typical small streams. If you're like me, then 10-20 ft is the norm. Fairly severely overlining the rod is in actuality, properly lining it for your distance. Loading the rod is much, much easier.

This is all, of course, assuming that the weight ratings on your rod and line are proper, which isn't always the case. Lots of rod manufacturers underrate their rods for marketing purposes. Picture yourself setting out to buy a 5 wt. You grab 4 candidate rods and a reel loaded with 5 wt line and go outside to test cast side by side. First thing most do is strip out 60 feet of line and start hero casting. Well, guess what, there's one rod in the mix that's actually a 7 wt with a 5 wt sticker on it. And it feels FANTASTIC, much better than the other rods. Sold, and you go home with a 7 wt rod and saying, "boy, modern rods cast so much better than older rods". Till you get streamside and have to make a 10 ft cast with an underlined rod, anyway....

When evaluating any rod, or line weight on a rod, do your testing at the distance you expect to fish it, don't worry about what it does at unreasonable fishing distances.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:09


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2007/4/8 20:43
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pcray1231 wrote:
A cannot verify the accuracy of this, but I've always heard that rods are rated for 30 ft of fly line beyond the tip (not including leader). And fly lines are rated for the 1st 30 feet of the taper.


AFTMA standard. However, that doesn't take into effect stupid taper tricks.

AFTMA 5wt is 140 grains. If you want to play stupid taper tricks, you could take that 140 grains in a 50' long super awesomely thin front taper, or in 5' of super fat line with 200' of running line spread out. Because we've moved into a world where there's a taper for every species of fish, Ye Olde Numbers are horriffically broken.

To say nothing of extra fast rods that require speciality tapers (ie, SA GPX) that are built extra heavy to load them rather than doing what Pcray suggests, using a different line weight and logically varying it off.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:23
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April 8, 2007 - December 4, 2011.
And why not?


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2008/1/31 17:19
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Quote:
If you want to play stupid taper tricks, you could take that 140 grains in a 50' long super awesomely thin front taper


Technically, you can't. Because it's based on only 30 ft of the front taper.

Quote:
or in 5' of super fat line with 200' of running line spread out.


Yup, you can do that. Your point stands that the numbers aren't quite right due to variation in tapers. Those lengths/weight ratings are only equal if the line were flat and the weight evenly distributed over the first 30 ft.

And also correct, that in response to rods being underrated, they are starting to overweight lines to match. So that 7 wt rod that you bought rated as a 5 wt. Well, eventually you figure out that a 7 wt line works better on it. But since you'd never do anything so drastic and don't realize the rod is a 7 wt, they label a 7 wt line as a 5 wt. Yesterday's 7 wt just became today's 5 wt, and yesterday's 5 wt is now today's 3 wt. Yay, we've come so far...

My point still stands too. Experiment at the distance your going to use it at, and use your head. If you're going to cast far less than 30 ft of fly line with a rod, then feel free to see how it handles when overlined fairly severely. Not just 1 line weight, but try 2, 3, or 4 line weights!

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:40


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2007/4/8 20:43
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
Quote:
If you want to play stupid taper tricks, you could take that 140 grains in a 50' long super awesomely thin front taper

Technically, you can't. Because it's based on only 30 ft of the front taper.


Well, you can but then its not an AFTMA 5wt, but an AFTMA Xwt, but they can just write "5wt" on the box because who the hell cares anymore? Reference GPX tapers (again) again for actual examples of stupid taper tricks.

But yes, technical point you.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:44
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Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2006/9/11 15:10
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I get overlining by one or so but if you need to put a 6 on a 3 then thats a little ridiculous.....just my opinion.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:49


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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Why? I mean, for sure, it'd be for a specialist rod only. But if I had a 3 wt, and I expected that I'd never cast more than 10-15 ft on the day, then yes, loading it with 6 wt line is entirely reasonable. I've had such situations. Though, to be sure, even my more typical days on brookie streams involve casts up to 20 ft or so. 2 line weights seems more reasonable for most.

My "typical" brookie set up is a 6 wt line on a 4/5 wt rod. Yes, I've loaded 7 wt line on it once or twice, and it was the right decision for those situations.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 14:58


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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Why do people spool mono on fly reels in the great lakes? Cause its easier. We like the challenge of fly fishing so like i said its only my opinion. We're talking about brookies here...you should be able to bash em up pretty good without the need for overlining by 2 or 3. I realize you do a lot of this fishing so yes it's more specific to you and if that's your deal go for it.

jeff

Posted on: 2011/10/25 15:27


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2011/2/17 20:04
From Berks County
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I appreciate all of your responses to my question. I did not realize that the rods were rated for 30 ft of line. This actually helps me understand, and makes sense now, as when I cast my 2 wt. in the yard, I generally cast more line than in practical application. No wonder it feels better in my yard than on the stream. I rarely make a 30 ft cast on the stream, so I really think I would benefit from overlining the 2 wt a bit. I will try a 3 and 4 wt line and see how it feels on shorter casts.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 16:40


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 12917
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Quote:
Why do people spool mono on fly reels in the great lakes?


Drift. Casting is typically very easy on the tribs, you could do just fine with any set up. So with casting out of the equation, getting a perfect drift, and having a lot of sensitivity is the next step of importance. Hence, mono.

Quote:
you should be able to bash em up pretty good without the need for overlining by 2 or 3


Oh, I agree you can catch them without severely overlining. But by the same token, I don't see any advantage to not doing it if the situation calls for it. It's not like I go in with a preference to stay light but will go heavy only if I "have" to. There is no initial preference either way, every day is a blank slate.

I have 2 reels which cover all of my collection of 5 wts. Each has 2 spools, for a total of 4 line combinations I can choose. 4 wt, 5 wt, 6 wt, and 7wt. Merely a question which reel/spool I put on which rod each and every outing.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 16:52

Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/10/25 17:18:13


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 12917
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Quote:
This actually helps me understand, and makes sense now, as when I cast my 2 wt. in the yard, I generally cast more line than in practical application. No wonder it feels better in my yard than on the stream. I rarely make a 30 ft cast on the stream, so I really think I would benefit from overlining the 2 wt a bit. I will try a 3 and 4 wt line and see how it feels on shorter casts.


It will help, you're welcome. Try it out in the yard, it'll do better close in. But don't go casting those hero distances anymore, cause then it's overLOADING. At worst, you'll break the rod (that is doubtful, but I don't wanna be responsible). At best, your cast will fall apart at a shorter distance than it did before, and it'll feel like crap and you'll be tempted to go back. Remember, what happens at distances beyond where you'll fish are meaningless!

Yard casting is good practice, plus it makes the neighbors think you're weird (one of the perks). It's especially good if you give yourself obstacles and situations. Can I get put my backcast under this limb, then cast under that limb and hit the leaf there beyond it. Just do it at typical fishing distances. Take an old fly and cut off the hook. It is much more realistic than the piece of yarn trick, which tends to spin and float and twists up your line something terrible. And also remember that land based roll casts suck compared to what you can do on water.

Posted on: 2011/10/25 17:05


Re: Good Small Stream Rod
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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Interesting thread. I agree with Pcray that rods can be overlined (and at times underlined) for better performance at certain distances and/or fishing conditions. One thing, the 30’ fly line thing is often misunderstood by many anglers. All fly lines are measured (weighed) where the taper begins out to the 30’ mark. That 30’ distance is only for the standardization of the test, and not necessarily the optimum casting distance of the rod (just like the 48 mph average speed in the mpg test is not necessarily the optimum speed for an automobile). Your rod should be able to cast more or less line well.

If you are casting a short distance, than overlining a rod may be a good option, but it really depends on the rod itself. A fast-action rod may perform better overlined, but a slow-action rod may not. I suggest you experiment a little to find the optimum line weight for your rod taking into account the type of fishing and casting you expect to do on a particular stream.

To further complicate things, since you can control the power application on your cast, a more aggressive or less aggressive speed-up and stop will have a similar effect on the loading of your rod as changing the line weight.

Long and short, play with it a bit to find the combination that works best for you and your rod.

Posted on: 2011/10/26 7:49


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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I like yard casting, but I think it's a good idea to measure how far you are yard casting because a 40 ft cast looks much longer on a small trout stream vs your open yard. On small streams you will often catch fish at 15-30 ft, which looks like nothing in an open yard. If you set up your rod and line for fun 50 ft and longer yard casts, it wont be set up for the 10-30 ft casts you usually make on a small stream. On most pools in really small scale streams it is often impossible to use a 40 ft cast, youd cast past the start of a pool.


I often wind up overlining rods by one or two weights if I plan to use them on small streams.

Posted on: 2011/10/26 8:07


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2006/9/16 15:52
From Bucks County
Posts: 597
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Interesting thread. I agree with Pcray that rods can be overlined (and at times underlined) for better performance at certain distances and/or fishing conditions. One thing, the 30’ fly line thing is often misunderstood by many anglers. All fly lines are measured (weighed) where the taper begins out to the 30’ mark. That 30’ distance is only for the standardization of the test, and not necessarily the optimum casting distance of the rod (just like the 48 mph average speed in the mpg test is not necessarily the optimum speed for an automobile). Your rod should be able to cast more or less line well.

If you are casting a short distance, than overlining a rod may be a good option, but it really depends on the rod itself. A fast-action rod may perform better overlined, but a slow-action rod may not. I suggest you experiment a little to find the optimum line weight for your rod taking into account the type of fishing and casting you expect to do on a particular stream.

To further complicate things, since you can control the power application on your cast, a more aggressive or less aggressive speed-up and stop will have a similar effect on the loading of your rod as changing the line weight.

Long and short, play with it a bit to find the combination that works best for you and your rod.


I'll complicate this even more. You probably realize it but just in case, your rod will feel different casting it on the stream versus casting it on the lawn. Good Luck!

Posted on: 2011/10/26 8:12
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Re: Good Small Stream Rod
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Quote:

Rolf wrote:
Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Interesting thread. I agree with Pcray that rods can be overlined (and at times underlined) for better performance at certain distances and/or fishing conditions. One thing, the 30’ fly line thing is often misunderstood by many anglers. All fly lines are measured (weighed) where the taper begins out to the 30’ mark. That 30’ distance is only for the standardization of the test, and not necessarily the optimum casting distance of the rod (just like the 48 mph average speed in the mpg test is not necessarily the optimum speed for an automobile). Your rod should be able to cast more or less line well.

If you are casting a short distance, than overlining a rod may be a good option, but it really depends on the rod itself. A fast-action rod may perform better overlined, but a slow-action rod may not. I suggest you experiment a little to find the optimum line weight for your rod taking into account the type of fishing and casting you expect to do on a particular stream.

To further complicate things, since you can control the power application on your cast, a more aggressive or less aggressive speed-up and stop will have a similar effect on the loading of your rod as changing the line weight.

Long and short, play with it a bit to find the combination that works best for you and your rod.


I'll complicate this even more. You probably realize it but just in case, your rod will feel different casting it on the stream versus casting it on the lawn. Good Luck!




..........

Posted on: 2011/10/26 9:22


Re: Good Small Stream Rod

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2010/6/9 12:35
From down the block from the Letort.
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pcray: Quote:
First thing most do is strip out 60 feet of line and start hero casting. Well, guess what, there's one rod in the mix that's actually a 7 wt with a 5 wt sticker on it. And it feels FANTASTIC, much better than the other rods. Sold, and you go home with a 7 wt rod and saying, "boy, modern rods cast so much better than older rods". Till you get streamside and have to make a 10 ft cast with an underlined rod, anyway....



ok, so I gotta ask...if you personally know this, then why do you buy rods only to overline them when you fish? Looks to me like you're doing exactly what you describe here, why don't you just get a 3/4wt that actually does load in close without having to overline it?

Posted on: 2011/10/26 9:55



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