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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/11/4 22:06
Posts: 735
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i know exactly what it is... you found some asian website that mass produces junk

junk with no R&D
OR
its grey market tapers cranked on inferior products

you're going to sell it for 1000% markup from a website



Posted on: 2012/6/7 13:48


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13357
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Honestly, compare tapers. Get yourself a mic if you have to.

Ok, there are two things to pay attention to.

#1 is the "aggressiveness" of the front taper. ALL fly lines are thin at the business end and taper up. How aggressive that taper is can vary between models, but DT vs. WF makes no difference. Both can be aggressive or "delicate" tapers. And the truth is, most lines are awfully similar on the front taper. This front taper is maybe the first 10-15 ft of the fly line.

#2 after they get to full thickness, i.e. the "body", a WF stays that way for 25-30 ft, then tapers back to the running line. A DT stays that way for about 70 ft.

So, when the front taper and body are taken into account, there is absolutely no difference between a DT and a WF for the first 35-40 ft of line. Add, say, close to a 10' leader to that, and you're making 45-50 foot casts before there's one iota of a difference between WF and DT.

I won't say I never have to make a cast that far, but it's exceedingly rare.

Posted on: 2012/6/7 16:40


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
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ryguyfi,

<< I honestly think it's all marketing.

Thank you for your honesty! I also believe the same.

<< EVERY reel that comes with line on it has WF line.

It is possible, or at least was possible, to buy a reel from a flyshop and have them put the line of your choice on it.

If you are not hand picking the components then of course the "industry" will pick a WF line for you. I mean, they want to sell you as many lines as possible.

<< It's just what is the industry standard.

It was not always so. DT lines were the standard, at least for the type of fishing we have in PA for many years. The only thing that changed was huge influx of new fly anglers that did not know any better than to fall for the marketing crap.

<< I've never used a DT line and that is probably the reason why.

I suspect you are not alone.

<< I think the taper is a bit easier for the "beginner" to cast too, and there's a lot more beginners than experts out there.

I am sure the "industry" wants you to believe this. There is little truth to it. Sure, a WF line with a short front taper will load a rod with less line out than a DT line with a long front taper. Both are available with various front tapers. In the end you are casting the weight of the line and 30' of WF5 should weigh the same as 30' of DT5.

The one advantage of a WF line is, when casting long distance, you can shoot more line. It is what WF lines were designed to do. Likely a very real advantage in salt water fishing. Of little value on PA trout streams/rivers.

Posted on: 2012/6/7 18:37


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6459
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I agree shortrod, more saying that a "preloaded" reel always has WF line on it.



Here's another question. Can you guys really tell the difference between lines?


I can from a VERY cheap line to a quality line, but not from one quality line to another. I'm sure it's minute, but it really won't make a difference in my fishing.

Posted on: 2012/6/7 20:26
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Re: Fly Line Preferences
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Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8869
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I can say with all honesty, there is no conspiracy by the "industry."
If FFers prefer to buy WF lines, the "industry" will produce and sell WF lines. Same for reels. The vast majority seems to prefer large arbor reels, so that's what you see offered. And 4-piece rods - can't even sell a 2 piecer....yada, yada, yada.

And the Pièce de résistance is felt soled wading boots. There is absolutely no difference in the profit of felt vs. rubber soled boots. In fact, I'm aware of a large FFing company that has been selling felt boots at a reduced price/profit just to get rid them since no one seems to want them (a good thing, IMO).

DT vs. WF lines:

Taper - virtually the same @ 30 feet +/-

Shootability - WF thin running line easier to shoot after 30+ ' of line. DT tends to overload rod when carrying >30' of line and doesn't shoot as well.

Backing - WF with the thin running line allows more backing than DT

Reverseable - DT can be reversed when worn on one end. WF cannot.

Selection - WF- Many (too many?) types of different tapers & specialty tapers offered. DT limited.

No right or wrong. Weigh all the strengths and weaknesses and choose the one that best fits the type of fishing you do.

I fish in a lot of different places. For short casts - no difference, but I do make longer casts at times and like to have the versatility of a WF line. That's me.


Posted on: 2012/6/8 7:27


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
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afishinado,

<< I can say with all honesty, there is no conspiracy by the "industry."

Not really a "conspiracy" but you are incredibly naive if you don't think the line manufacturers want you to buy WF lines.

<< If FFers prefer to buy WF lines, the "industry" will produce and sell WF lines.

The reason many FFers prefer WF lines is because the "industry" has told them they prefer WF lines.


ryguyfi,

<< Here's another question. Can you guys really tell the difference between lines?

Yes and no.

Yes, lines with a very long front taper (Orvis Spring Creek and Wulff Triangle, ...) can be any where between lousy to horrible on small streams.

Yes, one line that is no longer made performed slightly better for me than any other.

Yes, different materials "feel" different enough to notice.

No, with the exception of the first "yes" and, while it was still available, the second, one line is a good as another. The last 8 or so lines I have purchased were on sale. The $70, $80 and $100 price tags are getting out of control. Seems like they jumped from $35 to $70 over night.

Posted on: 2012/6/8 15:42


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2181
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Dear shortrod,

Preach on brother!

At the Jamboree I loaned a reel spooled with a $ 9.00 DT5 fly line to a guy. It then was mounted on a Chinese made knock-off bamboo rod.

A skilled caster then proceeded to cast the entire line plus a couple 10 - 20' of backing.

I wasn't the skilled caster but I definitely had a lesson reinforced, that being, "A fool and his money are soon parted."

It's all hype, it's up to you how much you want to swallow.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2012/6/8 23:06
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/9/13 22:36
From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
Posts: 5454
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a level line was the standard for years then the DT, a level works best on a beginner caster. also for short cast on small streams they load best.

Posted on: 2012/6/10 8:08
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Re: Fly Line Preferences
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8869
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Quote:

shortrod wrote:
afishinado,

<< I can say with all honesty, there is no conspiracy by the "industry."

Not really a "conspiracy" but you are incredibly naive if you don't think the line manufacturers want you to buy WF lines.

<< If FFers prefer to buy WF lines, the "industry" will produce and sell WF lines.

The reason many FFers prefer WF lines is because the "industry" has told them they prefer WF lines.



Not really a "conspiracy" but you are incredibly naive if you don't think the line manufacturers want you to buy WF lines.


I'm not naive at all, actually, I'm in the "industry." My post above is an objective list of pros and cons for buying DT vs. WF. Buy DT if you wish to turn it around, but WF is more versatile. Many FFers, myself included, fish in a lot of different streams and rivers and find the shooting ability of running line very useful.

Again, for small streams and very short casts, not big deal. If that's the case, I recommend you actually cut the line in half and store the other end away. When the first section wears out, you will have the other; essentially a brand new line to fish.

There ya go!...you can now say "the industry" told you to buy DT!

Posted on: 2012/6/11 7:38


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/11/4 22:06
Posts: 735
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honestly
turning around a DT line is not even on the radar for the "industry"

Posted on: 2012/6/11 8:25


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
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afishinado,

<< My post above is an objective list of pros and cons for buying DT vs. WF.

A critique of you list:

Shootability: agreed.
Reverseable: agreed.

Backing:

How often has having 400 yds of backing instead of 200 yds been an advantage to you while fishing in PA?

Now the thinner running line will allow you to fit a heavier WF line and a reasonable amount of backing on a smaller reel. That could be an advantage.

But it could also be said that the thicker belly of a DT can give you the benefits of a large arbor reel on a small arbor reel.

I see no general advantage.

Selection:

How many lines does the "industry" want me to buy? Now I "need" a different line every time I change my fly? My favorite "special" lines are the heavy lines. Lines created by the "industry" to solve a problem introduced by the "industry". The sensible solution would be to label a 6wt a 6wt. Instead, they label it a 4wt and then create a 6wt line labeled 4wt, so they can say "look how far you can cast with our 4wt!".

<< but WF is more versatile

Again, a WF line can cast farther by shooting more line. However, casting and fishing are different. I assume most people buy fly lines to fish with and the goal of fishing is to catch fish. When it comes to fly fishing, there are very few absolute truths. One that comes pretty close is that as distance increases from you to a fish's lie the probability of hooking and landing a fish decreases.

An anecdote:
While I spend most of my time on smaller streams, I do on occasion fish larger waters. The water of this tale is the Yough 2 miles above Connelsville. I noticed a few rising fish near the center of the river and waded to get into position below them. I quickly found the water deeper than my waders are tall. By stepping from large rock to large rock I was able to get into a good position about 25' below this pod of risers. I think I caught two of the pod before they quite, normal stocked fish 10"-14". Then I noticed a bunch of fish rising close to the opposite bank. I guess that the casts were somewhere around 60'. It was the max distance I could get while standing on the highest point of a rock with water pushing over the top of my waders. Here is the point: At around 60', I would only hook one fish out of around ten strikes. All of those fish turned out to be 6" fingerlings.

Another anectode:
Once while fishing a mid-day Green Drake hatch, I released a fish and cast at the next riser. I could not see my big size 10 fly. I pulled in to see if I had lost my fly. I had lost my fly, and my leader and about 10' of line. Actually not lost they were still at my feet. I must have stepped on the line on the edge of a very sharp rock and it cut completely through. I was able to reverse the line on the bank of the stream and continue fishing the Green Drake hatch in short order.

I dispute your claim that a WF line is more versatile. Its advantage is being able to cast farther but why would I want to cast farther when I can't hook and land the fish that I can reach with a DT max cast? On the other hand the reversibility of a DT line, on one occasion, was the kind of versatility I could use.

afishinado and Ramcatt,

<< honestly
<< turning around a DT line is not even on the radar for the "industry"

Are you saying that the line manufacturers are not aware that a DT line can be reversed?

Or are you saying that the line manufacturers would be perfectly happy if all fly anglers switched to buying DT lines?

Or something else?

Regardless, take a look at this piece of propaganda from a line manufacturer.

I read this to say "We are here to debunk some reasons you may have for using a DT line, you have always used a WF line and that has always worked for you so you can forget all about DT lines. Besides only a cheap skate would go through the hassle of reversing a line and we know thats not you our loyal customer."

sandfly,

<< a level line was the standard for years then the DT, a level works best on a beginner caster. also for short cast on small streams they load best.

Level lines as standard must be before my time. I certainly remember when they were commonly available and they were my personal standard for years because they cost about 1/5 as much as a DT line. I have not even seen one for sale in years. You are of course absolutely correct about a level line loading a rod with less line.

Posted on: 2012/6/11 15:43


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/2 10:08
From Westmoreland County (near fairgrounds)
Posts: 3738
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Good luck with your endeavor Ryan. Let us know when you have something for sale.

Posted on: 2012/6/11 21:06
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2007/10/17 10:49
From florida
Posts: 6275
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It ain't the tools,it's the craftsman. GG

Posted on: 2012/6/11 23:07
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4423
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Ryan, I know lots of folks that would love to have a US made traditional looking reel. sorta getting hard to find these days without spending a load, everyone wants a large arbor and super truck stopping drag for their 3wts! lol
US made, click and pawl reel along the lines of a hardy or BBS, yes, count me in.
large arbor for 6wt and up, sure, but I'd make sure it was very unique, since there are tons of options out there.

edit
oh yeah, I use both WF and DT, just depends on the stream and situation. I probably have more DT on reels right now than WF though. different rods feel better with different lines, I try a bunch of combos till I find the one that "speaks" to me.
and i hate bight colored neon lines!

Posted on: 2012/6/12 6:33


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6459
Online
I've actually talked to a few people recently with contacts in machine shops and a few fly fishermen who have experience there too. It'll be a few years before I test the waters on that, but I know there's a real market for that out there. Just not there yet.


I'll have some product in the next few weeks. I'm not going to break protocol for advertising on paff, but if you're interested in what's going on just pm me.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 11:02
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