advantages of leader and tippet over straight mono?

[King-Fisher]

I have been flyfishing off and on for a few years now and am looking to upgrade my outfit. I learned on a 7wt. and have been using it ever since on medium sized trout streams. I think its a bit overkill and am purchasing a 5wt soon. I always use straight 4lb mono as my leader and I do alright. My question is what advantage would I have using traditional leader and tippet material over my leftover ultra-light line?

 

[MKern]

The leader, whether it's tappered or decreasing-in-size sections, transfers energy from your fly line to the fly a lot better.

Of course throwing 4lb. with a 7 wt. the energy is going to flow anyway.

 

[pcray1231]

I think it depends on what type of fishing you do. A tapered leader will cast nicer, and I like to tie my own because it adds the advantage of being able to alter it as you need. When you need distance, accuracy, or to throw a tight loop to avoid vegetation, you want a tapered leader. It just turns over so much nicer.

But in some situations I do use a flat leader, essentially all tippet like yours. The lighter leader material cuts water and reduces drag, giving you less drag and better feel for tight line nymphing or even swinging wets. It does force you to open your cast, but if there's no brush, you don't need maximum distance, and perfect accuracy doesn't matter, well, then its an advantage.

 

[wgmiller]

I've also read that in a lot of saltwater applications guys use straight leaders.

 

[AlwaysWading]

A few years ago I threw away the notion that you have to purchase tapered leaders and tippet. I went straight to using a good grade of 8 wt and 5 wt right off the shelf for leader and tippet. I'll stand toe to toe with those using fly shop tapered leader and tippet and never blink an eye as I match their catches. I save money, tie my own stuff, and C&R native trout with no issue. For me fly fishing is all about presentation, so no matter what gear you have, or what you use, if you present it right a trout will chase it down.

 

[tomgamber]

so are you tying knotted tapered leaders or just a straight piece of mono?

 

[PoconoPuke]

I've always built my own with Maxima mono. As soon as the 6/0 unwaxed uni thread comes in I'm going to build some furled leaders. The claim is they just about cast themselves and no need to work at getting coils to straighten out like with the mono.
If anyone is interested here's a link on building them along with the jig you will need... http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/henk/henk2.htm

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

A few years ago I threw away the notion that you have to purchase tapered leaders and tippet. I went straight to using a good grade of 8 wt and 5 wt right off the shelf for leader and tippet. I'll stand toe to toe with those using fly shop tapered leader and tippet and never blink an eye as I match their catches. I save money, tie my own stuff, and C&R native trout with no issue. For me fly fishing is all about presentation, so no matter what gear you have, or what you use, if you present it right a trout will chase it down.

I hear what you are saying. I really do. But using homemade leaders on classic limestone spring creeks is a recipe for failure. I think it really depends on the creek you are fishing to what gear you use ;-)

 

[Maurice]

Puke,

Have you ever made a furled leadeer before? And have you ever used one? They are kinda nice for dry flies in smaller sizes and instead of dealing with coils with Mono, you have to deal with knots and loops that you absolutely cannot get out.

I don't put a lot of stock in the leaders I use. I think they are a collossal waste of money. Its the last four feet of tippet that matters most in presentation. When I find an old leader that a pig fly fisherman left on the ground in a parking lot, I pick it up. Straighten it out and wind it wround m hand for future use if it has a good five feet to it. From there I build it down to 9-12ft with tippet.

In general, I think you want to have something stiffer and more substantial in the middle between your fly line and tippet to help with the transfer of energy. Especially if you are fishing any kind of weight on the end of your line. (read nymphing) For dry flies, not somuch necessary to get the fly out there because the line does that but to present the fly a good distance past the end of the fly line you need a tapered leader to transfer the energy for a delicate presentation.

If you are using a 7 wt and mono you are chucking and ducking. Thats fine for Steelheading....I do it most of the time this way. But fly fishgin for trout, especially with dries, you may need to become more of a conventional fly fisher.

 

[pcray1231]

Maurice,

I have slight adjustments to your point of view. The main difference is in nymphing.

1. Dry flies: Tapered, and the whole leader is vitally important. Tapered gives you better accuracy, and thats often the name of this game. Without the taper my fly just flops around and lands wherever, the wind is a major problem. But you need those S-curves in your leader and the tippet has to be long enough to not cause drag issues, so its always a balance between casting and drag prevention. I like a stout butt section with an agressive taper, transitioning to a soft, slowly tapered 2nd half, and tippet length adjusted to the specific situation.

2. High sticking nymphs: Don't need no stinkin taper. Thicker leaders cause drag in the water, a flat mono (essentially all tippet) cuts through the water and puts you in better touch with your fly, while not causing drag. This is the secret of the good spinning rod bait guys, they drift their bait with the current and are in perfect touch with the bait, they can feel every bump of the stream bottom and they feel a hit immediatly. You can do the same with fly gear and nymphs.

3. Long-line nymphing or wet-flies: A taper is again preferred. It's hard to cast distances without straightening the leader out. With wet flies, I'll intentionally swing them, but with nymphs on a long line I'll often use a strike indicator, which helps get the fly down for me, anyway, because otherwise I have trouble getting deep after straightening the leader.

4. Lots of weight (heavy nymphs, streamers, etc.): Need a taper to cast the thing. I usually go with short, stout tapered leaders.

 

[afishinado]

I agree with Pcray on the why and how of leader construction. IMO, this all can be accomplished with even better results with a furled leader. I build my own mono furled leaders, and generally use them as the butt of my leader. I build the mid section out of mono and taper them to the tippet based on the conditions and the way I plan to fish. The main thing I don’t like about a stiff mono leader butt is it has the flexibility of spring steel, and causes drag. A find a more suppler furled leader can be cast with S-curves or can turn over a bulky dry fly, more by its mass rather than its stiffness.

For nymphing I tie my tippet to the furled leader and grease up the furled leader to float, using it as an indicator. My goal when nymphing is to fish all tippet in the water to minimize drag. The furled butt holds a paste type floatant well, and lasts for hours of fishing, and helps with mending for either fishing dries or nymphs. Also, I have never had a knot in my furled leader to date, although I have had some close calls hanging it up in trees.

 

[dryflyguy]

A few years ago, I started tying a different dry fly leader. It uses a 3 foot butt section of Orvis Hy-flote, then the rest of it is tied with sections of Stren low vis mono line. I've been quite happy with it, and have quit tying the George Harvey leaders.

Reading the nice posts on this site about the furled leaders has me interested in trying them, though

 

[afishinado]

dryfly,

Before I start tying furled leaders, I did the exact same thing with the Orvis Hy-float butts. It does work well.

 

[pcray1231]

Afish is apparantly 2 steps ahead of my dry fly leaders, and dryflyguy 1 step. I'm basically using the Harvey formula but starting to play. Afish, can you give me some tips, or a link or something, showing how to make a furled leader? I'm interested, I never tried one, and I always like to experiment.

 

[JackM]

Here's a link to a post with a furled leader instruction:

http://www.paflyfish.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=65411#forumpost65411

Or, you can just scroll back a handful of posts.

 

[afishinado]

Pcray,

I not really ahead of anyone, I'm just a tinkerer, always looking for a better way. I wrote these instructions for someone and saved a copy. It is very detailed and looks VERY complicated, but it actually takes me 20-30 minutes at most to make a leader. Here goes........good luck:


How to Make Mono Furled Leaders (without a jig):

You can use any type of mono. I choose the regular mono that one would use on a spinning outfit such as Trilene. I find Trilene more limp than say Stren or some of the others, a good attribute for a leader butt IMO. For making a leader for a 4 or 5wt line, I use 6lb test mono, which is equal to 2X diameter in fly-fishing terms.

For making a 5’ (60” leader) with 6lb/ 2X mono I use the following taper:

18” (8 strands) > 16” (6 strands) > 14” (4 strands) > 12” (2 strands) = 60”

Stated another way, to build such a taper, here are the lengths of the four doubled segments needed to be furled:

60” ___________________________________________
48” _________________________________
34” ______________________
18” ____________


Peel off enough mono to make the 60” segment first. Since the line is furled (twisted together) you need to double the 60” equaling 120”, and add another 20” for waste and making the loops, which equals 140” total.

Take the 140” piece of mono and match the ends to double it in half. Go to the end that now has a loop formed and hold the mono on each side of the loop between your fingers. Rotate each piece of mono IN THE SAME DIRECTION and it will furl (twist) together and form a single line. This is best done over the back of a chair to keep the line separated and keep it from twisting together. After I furl down the entire length, I put an overhand knot on the end to hold it together. You now have the first of 4 segments completed. Put this segment aside for now.

Go the next longest segment, 48”. Double that length (96”) and add 14” for waste, totaling 110”. Follow the same procedure as the first segment. Furl the entire length, knot it at the end, and put it aside.

Now furl the 34” segment (78” of mono) and the 18” segment (50” of mono)

You now have four segments of furled mono in different lengths. Take the two longest segments, the 140” and 110” ones, and join them together with a overhand knot. Furl (twist) those two segments together IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION from the way you furled the first time. When you twist in the opposite direction, it tightens the furl, rather than loosening it. Check to make sure you are tightening the furl.

Now follow the same procedure for segment 3 (78”) and segment 4 (50”). You are now left with two segments. Knot them on the end and furl them together again IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION as during the last procedure. This actually would be in the same direction as when you started. Again, check to make sure you are tightening the furl.

You now have a single furled leader that is tapered. Go to the butt (thicker) end and whip- finish a loop in it. I use my fly tying bobbin with 6/0 tying thread on it and wrap about ¾” of thread for the whip finish. You can use a bobbin threader or a loop of mono to pull through the last 10 wraps of thread to secure the whip finish, just like in wrapping a guide when rod building.

After the loop is made, lay out the leader on a tape measure and put a little masking tape on the loop to hold it in place. The 1/8” masking tape used in rod building is ideal for this. Measure down to 18” from the loop and put a thin strip of masking tape on that mark. This will be the end of your first segment. Mark the next segment with a thin strip of masking tape at 34” and the next at 48”. Now at the thinnest end of the leader, whip finish a loop ending at the 60” mark.

Now whip finish the middle segments at the masking tape mark. I’m fly tier and a rod builder, so the procedure is second nature for me. I use my fly tying bobbin with 6/0 thread and start the thread on the leader just as I would on a fly hook. After starting the thread, let the bobbin hang down and turn the leader to wrap it, just as I would when wrapping guides on a rod. Every 6 or 8 turns I use my fingernail to pack the threads together. Before making the last 10 or so wraps I insert a bobbin threader, you can also use a loop of mono, cut the thread leaving a long tag end, insert it through the loop or the bobbin threader, and pull through the tag end through the wraps to lock them in. I try to keep the thread on the completed whip finish about ¾” long. Go to the next section and continue to whip-finish all of segments in the same way.

I now stretch out the leader and make sure all the furling is tight. If it is, I now remove the masking tape and trim the tag end next to the thread wraps. I put a dab of “ZAP-A-GAP” on the thread to secure all the mono together. When that dries, I coat all the thread with a little bit of “Knot Sense” to seal them. This also allows the leader and loops to slide through the guides easily.

For this 5’ 4/5x leader, I typically attach 18” of 3x loop-to-loop, next I tie in 18” of 4x with a blood or surgeons knot, and add a 24” 5x tippet. This will give you 10’ 5x finished leader. You can experiment with different tapers at the end for better fly turnover or for getting more slack in your leader if that’s what you’re after. For slack casts I use the George Harvey formulas to finish the end of the leader and the tippet.

It looks like a long and complex project. But after doing it a couple of times, I find that it does not take much longer than measuring, cutting, and tying all those blood knots on a knotted leader. I can make a furled leader like the one described above in about 20 minutes.

Here are some things I have found:

You can use any type of mono for your furled leader, or even flouro if you want them to sink. You can also use Stren Gold mono or other similar brands for a hi-vis leader butt. I most often use regular mono (Trilene), 4 lb for lighter lines (2-3 wt), 6lb for mid weight (4-5wt), and 8 pound for my heavy trout, steelhead or bass line (6-8wt). As a guide, 6lb Trilene = 2x diameter. I like the Trilene brand because it is limper than most other mono.

I tie my furled leader butts as short as 3.5' long for my 6/7' small stream trout rod, all the way up to 7' long to build a delicate taper out to a 15' finished leader length. Five feet is the average for my 9' rod which tapers out well to a 10' or 11' finished leader.

You can use white thread, which will “disappear” when it’s coated, or you can use fluorescent colored thread, which can double as a strike indicator. I usually use white thread and work a dab of orange “Strike Putty” into the leader butt for visibility. It shows up well in the water, and can be removed if desired.

I like to use a paste type floatant and work it into the furled leader butt. It will float all day and mend like a dream when treated with floatant.

Give it a try. Good luck.

 

[pcray1231]

Afish,

Thank you very much. I'll probably give it a go in a week or two here, I've copied and saved your post.

Anyway, just a suggestion, my understanding from your post is that limpness is your main criteria for the line used. If so, I can't imagine why you are using Trilene? Ok, its limper than Stren original. But Trilene still rates as among the stiffer lines in the grand scheme of things. If you want limper lines, go with something meant for a spinning reel rather than a bait caster. Some of the "extra limp" versions of the bass lines start to get a little better, for example Trilene "smooth casting". But even then, a better brand will blow them out of the water. If limpness is what you're looking for I think Silver Thread (Excalibur) will make you very happy, the cut on it is that it stretches, which is actually an advantage on tippet, and I don't think makes any difference if furled.

 

[afishinado]

I'm not up on spinning lines like I used to be at one time. Trilene "smooth casting" is what I use. Also, back in my spinning days, I always liked Tectan lines.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, Tectan is pretty good stuff. Never did real scientific testing, but my off the cuff analysis is that while it has slightly more memory (still very good compared to most brands), its also a little slicker coating, and the casting is nearly identical to Silver Thread. It is a touch thinner for the same strength, and it has lower stretch. Now, while the strength to diameter is as good as it gets, the lower stretch is a negative when it comes to big fish, it doesn't take the quick surges as well. And the big negative, for me, is that it seems to get brittle in cold temperatures (as does Trilene). Basically, for your average trout fishing situation, its every bit as good as silver thread, if not a touch better. But don't use it on steelhead or for winter fishing. I had a cold 0-13 day on Elk Creek using Tectan 6.4 lb test, the next day I got some silver thread and went 6 for 7.

Thats all knowledge from 10 years ago, when I was primarily a bait fishermen, so I don't know how the newer tweaked versions work. I had settled on Tectan, and a spare spool of Silver Thread for steelhead, etc. I still do the bait thing once or twice a year, and still use the 3000 yard silver thread spool I got. If limpness is your main criteria, I can virtually assure either Tectan or Silver thread would outperform the Trilene "smooth cast" line, but if the Trilene does the job just fine then don't go through the hassle of changing, unless you just want to tinker....

 

[PoconoPuke]

No, never built or fished one. I have read that wind knots are impossible to get out. However, I have nothing but time on my hands and this project will keep me out of trouble.