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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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The population increased because of land use change. There is no indication that this was caused by government regulation. Nor was there in the previous example Mike gave.

What these examples show is that land use, vegetation management, in riparian areas can make a huge difference in the health of streams and therefore wild trout populations.

What you could conclude from this is that perhaps the government should do something prevent devastation of riparian areas from "cow-bombing", extending corn fields right up to the water's edge, extending groomed lawns up to the water's edge, parking lots right up to the water's edge, and other riparian travesties.

Right now the government does not prevent any of these things. They are all legal. I have seen riparian fencing where the cows are kept INSIDE the riparian fences. And places where the barn yard includes the creek. And places where corn fields are extended as close to the creek as the farmer can go without the danger of tipping the tractor into the creek.

BTW, this thread ought to have been in the Conservation forum, and titled something like "Once Again Improved Riparian Land Use Leads to Blossoming Wild Trout Population."

Because that is gist of what really happened.

Posted on: 1/5 11:42


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Very good Afish in comment #15. The theme was more important than the specific stream, and that was in large part why I left the stream name out of it.

As for Fishidiot's one suggestion, the December survey allowed us to get the survey in under the 2013 wire. If you recall, the policy for removing Class A streams from the stocking program is that two successive surveys during two different years (there is no requirement to do the surveys 2 years in a row, however) must reveal Class A equivalent biomasses. Doing the survey in 2013 opened the door for potentially doing the second one in 2014. Additionally, per Fishidiot, the stream is already stocked by the PFBC at the bare minimum allocation, preseason only, and with only ST. It is my understanding that a Cooperative Nursery also stocks the stream.

Per Troutbert comment immediately above, if I recall correctly, NJ has a regulation that was put into place a few years ago that does much to protect riparian areas.

Posted on: 1/5 13:12


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Quote:

Mike wrote:

if I recall correctly, NJ has a regulation that was put into place a few years ago that does much to protect riparian areas.


I wonder how that is working out, in practical application. Maybe someone from NJ has some info they can share about that.

A similar rule is probably going to be needed in PA if we are going to make much progress with our streams. People were trying to create riparian buffers, fence cows away from streams etc. back when I started flyfishing around 1970. But so many of the riparian areas are still a total wreck, and are likely to remain that way as long as it's legal.

Posted on: 1/5 14:18


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Until some of the older heads leave the PFBC, I don't expect much but more of these strawmen to prove points ,already disproven throught the course of pa angling history.

Posted on: 1/5 22:58
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream
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I am not so sure this is a result of land use changes. The area surveyed has remained largely unchanged over the past few decades. It is heavily forested along a gravel road where only a few areas come close to the road. So yes it has a great buffer and is well shaded. Upstream is farm land and rural housing plots but not in the "grazing up to the banks" sense. And even up there land use hasn;t changed much.

I think this is more the result of reductions in fishing pressure as result of stocking numbers and "trophy fish" eliminations. This stream used to receive preseason and inseason stockings and the 10 trophy fish (which were too big for the stream). When Big Spring closed and stocking numbers were reduced the inseason stocking was eliminated IIRC and a few years later the Trophy Fish were eliminated from several smaller stocked streams in York County. This was one of them.

So the result was fewer angling hours I am sure as there were no reasons for the "big fish guys" to go there.

Sure it gets some co-op fish and the preseason stocking but it doesn't receive near the pressure it did early in the season.

This gives the wild trout pops a reprieve and a greater opportunity to flourish as fewer adult wild trout are creeled as a result.

So perhaps the title should be "Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream as a result of a reduction in stocking."

Posted on: 1/6 8:57
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Sal,
There are no straw men in this example. Ask some of your fellow Board participants the name of the stream about which I was writing. At least one has fished it; more are planning to. The point being made was more important than the name of the stream.

Posted on: 1/17 18:08


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Mike,

I see a bunch of strawmen in your example.
I think you know it too.

I have fished most all of Yorks wild trout streams and stocked sections. The name of the stream is not important at all, I never suggested as such, so on that you leave me confused.

While I'm sure you would like to use this example to apply a blanket to all PA streams, you could go the other way if you wanted.

Your example=stocking as no effect on wild trout
My example= cease adult trout stocking, get class a populations (See donegal creek)

As you know, my example applies to all streams in pa about as well as yours. So please spare us the constant fight to disprove one basic fact. Perhaps you should read Maurice's post.

Stocking over wild fish is bad. Pretty simple dontchathink?


Posted on: 1/17 19:21
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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The term strawman has a very specific meaning. It is does not mean "deliberately misleading."

If you Google "strawman" you will find definitions and examples.

Here is one simple definition:

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

Posted on: 1/17 20:13


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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That is one way to look at it Dwight. I think you may be right in what you think is going on here, but...

I think ignoring years of studies and facts to give a distorted view of what stocking over wild fish does apply to your definition of a strawman.
Just saying....continue.

Ps I hate typing on a phone lol

Posted on: 1/17 20:34
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
That is one way to look at it Dwight. I think you may be right in what you think is going on here, but...

I think ignoring years of studies and facts to give a distorted view of what stocking over wild fish does applies to you definition of a strawmen.


The term strawman means something else. A quick Google of "strawman" will provide definitions and examples.

Posted on: 1/17 21:00


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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You can say it 50 more times too.

Posted on: 1/17 21:19
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Just for you:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

Example: After pa anglers said that stocking over wild trout is bad and we really shouldn't do it, Mike responded by saying if we change land use and lower water temps, wild trout populations increase to class a levels even on stocked stream sections.

Original position ignored. Really in all, for reasons we can probably guess, this is something mike has been trying to disprove on this forum for years. So you can either wipe the crust from your eye and see it for what it is or ignore it completely, strawman or not.

Posted on: 1/17 21:52
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Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Returning to the original post and taking Maurice's theme into account: You'll recall that the sampling location on this stream was always the same, although the distance electrofished varied. The longest electrofishing run in 1978 produced the least trout...a single, most likely stocked fish. This despite the stocking of 700 trout through the spring. Water temp by June 28,1978 in mid-afternoon was already 25 C, or about 75-76 F....not good for maintaining a trout population through the summer. Air temp was 29 C....hot. Additionally, the fish community was indicative of annual warm summer water temps. It included warm water species such as common shiners, bluntnose minnows, and warm to moderate transitional margined madtoms, some smallmouth bass , but lacked rosyside dace, a standard York Co moderate to cool transitional species. The same stocking rate continued through 2001, but the next electrofishing sampling occurred 7/23/96. Water temp in mid-afternoon was 16 C, Air 23 C. One stocked RT was captured along with 16 wild BT, including fingerlings, and two stocked BT. The fish community was changing....the warm water common shiner and bluntnose minnow were gone. The transitional madtom remained. Rosyside dace , which had not been present before were now abundant. A few (3) small SMB were still present, but the fish community indicated that long term temps were cooling down. Remember, the wild trout appeared despite the same numbers of trout being stocked by the PFBC. It was not until 2002 that the stocking number dropped from 700 to 300, but the wild trout population was already present and growing in 1996. As an aside, given exponential population growth, it could have conceivably been a Class A equivalent by 2002. In Dec, 2013, we find a Class A equivalent population of wild BT and one stocked RT. The first electrofishing run produced 99 wild BT, with 50 more total caught in the following two electrofishing runs on the same day on the same site (a depletion population estimate was being conducted). Common shiners and bluntnose minnows were still gone and margined madtoms were also gone. Rosyside dace remained. I attribute the population change of trout and other indicator species to cooling water temps over the years associated with gradually maturing vegetation, not necessarily land use changes, upstream from the woodland where the samples were taken. I'm talking riparian vegetation here. The brown trout population and species that would have been affected primarily by temperatures responded (to cooling water temps in summers) before stocking rates changed. Similarly, Conowingo Creek went from no wild trout to Class A in about 10 years when riparian vegetation was allowed to grow. This should suggest something to folks interested in habitat projects. You may not need to even get into the water to have a very positive response in a trout population.

Posted on: 1/21 21:26

Edited by Mike on 2014/1/21 21:43:18
Edited by Mike on 2014/1/21 21:44:52


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Thank you for the last reply- it really spells out exactly where you are coming from with your earlier comments and stance in general. Cooling of creek waters is a wonderful thing (speaking as a fisherman), and I am glad to see 'new' populations getting a foot hold.

There are, obviously, way too many variables to derive many hard conclusions from this example, but the indications of a larger trend are the stronger point here.

Posted on: 1/22 13:23


Re: Once again a wild BT population blossoms on a stocked trout stream

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Allowing the riparian vegetation to grow unmolested can greatly improve streams, even transform them.

The big question is how to get landowners to do that. And not just on private land, but also on publicly owned land.


Posted on: 1/22 14:07



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