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Re: Kish or Honey

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2012/12/9 15:03
From Lewistown, PA
Posts: 379
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Oh. So you meant nothing except exactly what you said. Lol. Thanks. I'm not a local - just moved to the area last August, and have never heard anyone but fly fisherman call anything a holdover.

Posted on: 5/14 4:51


Re: Kish or Honey

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2006/11/2 8:50
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Quote:

jeremymcon wrote:
Oh. So you meant nothing except exactly what you said. Lol.


Yep.

I talked to a bunch of local fishermen when I first began fishing the stream, and that's what I heard. When I said those brown trout with nice colors and good fins were wild (streambred) trout they vehemently denied this and said that they were holdover stocked trout.

If some people are now calling them "natives" that is progress, because they understand that these are streambred trout, not holdover hatchery trout.

Posted on: 5/14 9:00


Re: Kish or Honey
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From Monessen, PA
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Speaking for myself I "got it." Troutbert was making note of the fact that many of the locals who fish it do not appreciate that those pretty looking trout are streambred.

Posted on: 5/14 9:03
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Re: Kish or Honey
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8854
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Quote:

jeremymcon wrote:
Oh. So you meant nothing except exactly what you said. Lol.


Yep.

I talked to a bunch of local fishermen when I first began fishing the stream, and that's what I heard. When I said those brown trout with nice colors and good fins were wild (streambred) trout they vehemently denied this and said that they were holdover stocked trout.

If some people are now calling them "natives" that is progress, because they understand that these are streambred trout, not holdover hatchery trout.



Hey TB,

Interesting. What happens when these guys catch a 4 or 5" trout? Still a "holdover"?!?

Posted on: 5/14 9:06


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2006/9/10 16:07
From Pine Grove
Posts: 2411
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Quote:

jeremymcon wrote:
Oh. So you meant nothing except exactly what you said. Lol.


Yep.

I talked to a bunch of local fishermen when I first began fishing the stream, and that's what I heard. When I said those brown trout with nice colors and good fins were wild (streambred) trout they vehemently denied this and said that they were holdover stocked trout.

If some people are now calling them "natives" that is progress, because they understand that these are streambred trout, not holdover hatchery trout.



Hey TB,

Interesting. What happens when these guys catch a 4 or 5" trout? Still a "holdover"?!?


"Damn state stocked a bunch of drinks last year!"

Boyer

Posted on: 5/14 9:15


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2012/12/9 15:03
From Lewistown, PA
Posts: 379
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:

Yep.

I talked to a bunch of local fishermen when I first began fishing the stream, and that's what I heard. When I said those brown trout with nice colors and good fins were wild (streambred) trout they vehemently denied this and said that they were holdover stocked trout.

If some people are now calling them "natives" that is progress, because they understand that these are streambred trout, not holdover hatchery trout.


Ha ha ha I do love it when people call brown trout "natives." Never heard anyone argue with me about the browns being wild, but then again I haven't talked to that many of the locals while on the stream. Thanks for the anecdote.

Posted on: 5/14 12:15


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2010/6/9 12:35
From down the block from the Letort.
Posts: 888
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Quote:
Ha ha ha I do love it when people call brown trout "natives."


And I find it humorous that some folks like to make a big deal out of this...guess it makes one feel a bit superior when comparing themselves to someone they feel is less edumacated, or something.

Makes me curious about your opinion on Charlie Fox? Recently ran across a passage in Rising Trout where he refers to wild browns as natives...so I guess he was just another clueless local (along with his editors.)


Posted on: 5/14 12:57


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2007/6/19 21:49
From Lancaster County
Posts: 1492
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
Quote:
Ha ha ha I do love it when people call brown trout "natives."


And I find it humorous that some folks like to make a big deal out of this...guess it makes one feel a bit superior when comparing themselves to someone they feel is less edumacated, or something.

Makes me curious about your opinion on Charlie Fox? Recently ran across a passage in Rising Trout where he refers to wild browns as natives...so I guess he was just another clueless local (along with his editors.)



Equally amusing is those who make a big deal out of those who are allegedly making a big deal out of the term native vs. wild

I don't think many (all?) of the folks who use the correct term are doing it to be snooty. If you're using the wrong terms to refer to your fly fishing rig, wouldn't you like if someone corrected you? If the experienced fly fisherperson gives advice to correct a casting deficiency in a fellow angler, is that advisor being snooty?

What next? If browns are now "native" (even though they are transplants), will the second generation of New Zealand mud snails in Spring Creek be considered native? Both are still non-native invasive species.

Bottom line is the use of native vs. wild does not necessarily imply that the user is a clueless anyone, but simply someone who misapplied the term. But it is technically incorrect. But, in this day and age when anything goes, why bother with words having actual scientific meanings? Browns are at best naturalized citizens in North America, if I may draw from a political analogy.

Charlie Fox - great fishing legend, but that legend doesn't change the fact that he and his editors was factually incorrect. Or does his legend give him liberty to rewrite biologists' terms for ecosystem inhabitants?

Regardless of the vernacular used, the most important thing is that whether the fish is referred to as holdover, wild, or native, it is viewed as a special thing, one that wasn't pumped full of pellets to reach its size, but rather that was hatched in the stream, grew up on whatever the stream diet consisted of, and fell for the angler's particular offering that day. And hopefully, the majority of those fish are released to perpetuate the cycle again. Not sure how much of that awareness exists on Kish, but hopefully it is on the rise.

I propose we refer to all questionable origin fish as "natild". Or "wilive". If the words take, in a few years, Websters should add them to the dictionary.

Posted on: 5/14 13:28


Re: Kish or Honey

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2006/11/2 8:50
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I don't recommend stringing anyone up by their thumbs because they use the word "native" to refer to a brown trout.

But it can cause confusion. People do not know what species of trout is being to referred to. I saw this just yesterday on another message board.

They were talking about a particular creek and person 1 said there are a lot of natives in there. Person 2 replied I never caught any natives in there.

Probably neither realized that one person was using the word "native" to mean brown trout and the other person to mean brook trout.

Posted on: 5/14 14:10


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2010/6/9 12:35
From down the block from the Letort.
Posts: 888
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Sorry, bit of a knee jerk reaction there...it's a mild pet peeve of mine seeing how some of the 'experts' on this site sometimes like to denigrate those that they feel are less than in some way. (And you wonder why we flyfishers are often perceived as snobby elitests...)

And jmcon's apparant laughter at those less educated pretty much hit that nerve squarely.

Quote:
Probably neither realized that one person was using the word "native" to mean brown trout and the other person to mean brook trout.


And I wonder if it's not a generational thing...I'm sure that old Charlie knew that the browns weren't 'native' trout, but was speaking/writing based upon the common usage of the terminology at that time.


And to steer this back on topic, someone mentioned that the state doesn't stock browns in the Kish, curious if there are any local sportsman's club that might also stock the stream? Perhaps there are holdovers along with the wilds, they just don't come from the state hatcheries?

Posted on: 5/14 14:33


Re: Kish or Honey

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2012/12/9 15:03
From Lewistown, PA
Posts: 379
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Geez. Sorry I chuckled. Sometimes I think the misuse of words is funny. Not that I would point it out to somebody and try to make them feel stupid or anything. My dad calls them natives all the time, but I still like fishing with him and telling him about the wild trout I caught.

Posted on: 5/14 20:42


Re: Kish or Honey
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Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 8854
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There are a lot of local names for fish as well as for just about everything and anything.

I grew up in NE PA, and any wild trout was (and still is for the most part) called a "native" trout.

No big deal at all. In fact, I find local terms for fish and things related to fishing very interesting, most times.

Up dere, alotta guys fish the crick with clippers and caddies.

Posted on: 5/15 8:12


Re: Kish or Honey

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2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6025
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People who say wild brown, stream-bred brown, and native brown all mean the same thing.

People who say holdover do not mean the same thing as those above. They are saying the trout are not wild or streambred, but are instead stocked hatchery trout.




Posted on: 5/15 11:19


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2012/12/9 15:03
From Lewistown, PA
Posts: 379
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:

Up dere, alotta guys fish the crick with clippers and caddies.


What the heck are clippers and caddies?

Posted on: 5/15 13:09


Re: Kish or Honey

Joined:
2012/12/9 15:03
From Lewistown, PA
Posts: 379
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@tyeager:

Where did you end up going, and did you catch any fish?

Posted on: 5/15 13:14



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