Valley Creek Restoration

vcregular

vcregular

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Joined
Sep 9, 2006
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Another impressive project for VF TU, and all its partners. Kudos to them!!!

Crabby Creek
 
Great job indeed! It’s unbelievable what the Valley Forge TU has accomplished to make Valley Creek what it is today, and what it promises to be in the future.

Not to pick on you Jack, well I guess I will anyway. I recall you saying on numerous occasions, that for most TU members, their motives for stream conservation is primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole. That may be a side benefit for some, but there are close to 800 members of VFTU, and many of these folks have never held a fishing rod in their hand. Also enlisted by TU, are local, state, and federal governmental agencies, along with several non-fishing organizations, universities and colleges, helping with these conservation efforts. For all the right reasons I might add, to conserve and enhance our streams for future generations. And well, maybe for some of us….to catch a few fish too.
 
That's great! I love Valley Creek...one of my most favorite streams to fish now! Especially in the summer. Every time I went in the summer the temp. stayed between 65-66 which great around these parts. I especially love the BLACK SNAKES that you run into there!!

I wouldn't mind having the opportunity of catching brookies in Crabby.
 
afishinado wrote:
Great job indeed! It’s unbelievable what the Valley Forge TU has accomplished to make Valley Creek what it is today, and what it promises to be in the future.

Not to pick on you Jack, well I guess I will anyway. I recall you saying on numerous occasions, that for most TU members, their motives for stream conservation is primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole. That may be a side benefit for some, but there are close to 800 members of VFTU, and many of these folks have never held a fishing rod in their hand. Also enlisted by TU, are local, state, and federal governmental agencies, along with several non-fishing organizations, universities and colleges, helping with these conservation efforts. For all the right reasons I might add, to conserve and enhance our streams for future generations. And well, maybe for some of us….to catch a few fish too.

Great project.

If it had been done only by fishermen, it would have been just as great a project.

A project like that does require the presence of non-fishermen to "vindicate" it.

Jack was working from an assumption that for fishermen to restore or conserve streams to improve fishing is somehow a negative or bad thing.

But neither he nor anyone else ever offered anything to support that assumption. I think that assumption is baseless. Wholly without merit!

Here's something to think about. For those of us who fish, are we proud of being fishermen? Ashamed of it? Do we think of it as an ancient, time-honored, venerable activity? Or do we think of it as something slightly shady, that we have to explain and justify.

And while you are pondering that, be sure you've got your fishing license. It's going to warm up this weekend, and it will be a good time to fish!
 
I doubt I ever said that "most" members of TU are in it primarily to improve their own fishin’ hole, though I do believe that many people who present themselves as caring about the streams or the trouts really only care about it to the extent it improves their fishing. In addition, I do not contend that it is a "bad thing" to improve a stream for your own selfish interests. What is "bad" if you want to call it that, is that some folks that fit this model won't admit it and intentionally disguise and deny it.
 
Jack, I’m really only funning you. Troutbert, I do think there are those out here that believe there is an ulterior motive for many conservation efforts by sportsmen, whether it be fishing or hunting. There may be some out there that participate only to enhance their sport, which is fine, but I believe that most sportsmen would pitch in whether or not it the conservation project enhances their sport or not. That was my real point; many people care about conservation, including sportsmen, and practice it to conserve and enhance natural areas for future generations and not necessarily just to enhance their catch.

I’m certainly not ashamed to be a fisherman, and yes I do support conservation projects to help the fish I pursue. I also support conservation efforts and charities that have nothing to do with my sport. I support them all because I believe it’s the right thing to do and I expect nothing in return, except the satisfaction of knowing the world may be a little better place with my help.

The intent of my original post was not to divert attention from the great job done on this project.
 
Sorry to have helped distract attention, but you can't expect to inaccurately proffer my position for me and not have me seek to correct it, particularly because it seems to get under people's skin even when stated accurately. Congratulations to all that helped with the effort. May your fishing be enhanced or not as you see fit.
 
You're a piece of work Jack. I guess I'm one of the people you speak of..... :lol:
 
Not from what you described. You sound more like someone who enjoys donating time and money to conservation causes and also such of them that benefit your own fishing-- and, to your further credit, you are willing to admit it.
 
The only reason to "admit it" would be if there was something negative about improving and sustaining fishing.

And that only makes sense if you think of fishing as a negative thing.

If you think of fishing as a good thing, then conservation and restoration to improve fishing is also a good thing.

You humans are so illogical.
 
troutbert wrote:
The only reason to "admit it" would be if there was something negative about improving and sustaining fishing.

And that only makes sense if you think of fishing as a negative thing.

If you think of fishing as a good thing, then conservation and restoration to improve fishing is also a good thing.

You humans are so illogical.

I think you're stretching Jack's point.

IMO, he's saying that people refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons, not that they are trying to make good on some cosmic sin they've committed.

I admit that I do any environmental work primarily to improve my experience outdoors. Secondarily, to improve that of my friends, and future children. All other positives come in bunched up at third place.

I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
jayL wrote:
troutbert wrote:
The only reason to "admit it" would be if there was something negative about improving and sustaining fishing.

And that only makes sense if you think of fishing as a negative thing.

If you think of fishing as a good thing, then conservation and restoration to improve fishing is also a good thing.

You humans are so illogical.

I think you're stretching Jack's point.

IMO, he's saying that people refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons, not that they are trying to make good on some cosmic sin they've committed.

I admit that I do any environmental work primarily to improve my experience outdoors. Secondarily, to improve that of my friends, and future children. All other positives come in bunched up at third place.

I don't see anything wrong with it.

"refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons" !!!!???
 
Two things.

1. Who cares what anybody's motivation to get involved and helps streams- or in my case, just to help improve the fishing??

2. Tom Brokaw does'nt fish valley.
 
lmfao!

I dont know about the whole tom brokaw thing but i really dont care what a persons reason is to help the enviroment. Even if its in your own selfish interest...it still benefits everyone.

Good Job VFTU!
 
Wow!

Next time I will make sure to post a stream improvement article from western pa. :-D

Silly, selfish me.
 
I want to be there when you guys explain to Owen Owens and the other Valley Cr TUers about their issues because they:

"refuse to admit their less-than-altruistic reasons"

I want to hear you explain to them the error of their ways.

And how they can get the Jack & Jay seal of approval, if they just fess up.

Jay, I think you live not too far from there. Stop by a Valley Creek TU meeting, introduce yourself, and 'splain it to them. :)
 
i would pay to see that......prehaps someone could post that on youtube :p
 
I'm not going to point out that you're being a bit of a douche about this, because I'm pretty sure you realize it.

I should have qualified the statement with "many". My mistake.

It still holds. Not everyone is there for the divine karma. Some just do it for their own fishing enjoyment. Are those rosy colored glasses polarized?

In this own thread, two of us have admitted to it. My reasoning for doing stream work is "less than altruistic". I do it for the fishing. Paul agrees. There's nothing wrong with it.

I had a correspondence with VFTU and they never got back to me with info. I'd be happy to explain myself.

"Hi. I'm jay. I'm here to make my fishing experience better."

Altruistic - showing unselfish concern for the welfare of others.

Doin' it to make your fishing better doesn't fit the bill. It's not an insult, you're just making it one.

Sal, what's so funny? Your statement implies that you agree with me. I suspect you just enjoy typing 'lmfao'.
 
I had absolutely nothing to add to this thread until two posters used my name in association with an incorrect account of my views that I have previously expressed about the reasons that many people engage in stream projects.

I applaud efforts to improve streams for fishing. I favor such projects that restore habitat in a natural way rather than those that create highly artificial improvements that seem only to be areas for me to lose more flies. I do, however, recognize that some such improvements are helpful where they counteract some other artificial condition created by human interferance with the natural course of the waterway.

What causes me on occasion to speak my view about the motivation of others is when such others adopt a holier-than-thou attitude about their volunteer efforts as if the world should begin painting halos behind their heads in any image depicting them, or when such persons assume that every angler should value their volunteer efforts as much as they value it themselves despite the fact that not all other anglers were dissatisfied with the state of the stream before their efforts were applied.

You can rail against my view if you wish, look down upon me, feel superior, but just make sure that if you want any of that to alter my view, it should at least accurately understand my view and not just be a straw man that you have set up to give you something you can easily knock back down.
 
Jack's has repeatedly attacked flyfishers involved in stream and fisheries conservation on this message board. If anyone doubts that, they can dig up the old posts.

Those attacks are the cause of the problem. If he hadn't done that, there never would have been this "issue."

VC, maybe it's best to let sleeping dogs lie, and not bring it up again. And I won't bring it up again either. But if the topic is brought up again, I have as much right as anyone else to comment on it.
 
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