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Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7535
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Well, I suppose it depends on what you call experts?

Posted on: 2010/9/13 21:52
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2006/9/22 22:56
From Sinking Spring, PA
Posts: 242
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Chaz,
Why do you have a problem with TCTU designing the projects that we do? Who better to design the projects than the guys that know the streams and have years of experience under their belt. Like J said everything gets reviewed and approved before a single rock is rolled.

Posted on: 2010/9/13 22:32


Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7535
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Most of the rock rolling doesn't work well or it fails after the first big flood. IT's not just Tully TU, it's all the rock rolling stuff. Far more projects have to be repaired after a few years than go without some kind of failure.
I know of a project that failed during a flood very soon after it was completed. The project was designed by someone who was an "expert."
It's hardly an exact science, and the experts that have been trained to do it don't always get them right.
It's probably not fair to single out a fine TU Chapter like Tully, but these projects fail quite often, as I said it's not just TU projects that fail. There is a big project on Elk Run in Tioga Cty that hasn't done what it was supposed to do and I would consider that a failed project based on that. It was designed by an expert.

Posted on: 2010/9/14 20:43
_________________
It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2010/6/26 11:19
From Along the Lehigh Above the Gap
Posts: 7054
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Chaz-----So what your saying is no stream projects should be done? I think it is better to try then not.

Posted on: 2010/9/15 9:23
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"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together, in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine. So tonight, I make a toast!"

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Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2006/9/11 21:48
Posts: 571
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Quote:
Chaz-----So what your saying is no stream projects should be done? I think it is better to try then not.


NO... I think what Chaz is saying is to make sure that someone of considerable knowledge and expertise should prepare the plans. Many things need to be considered, calculations should be performed and assessments prepared prior to installation of stream improvement devices.

Just throwing rock in a stream willy nilly will have little affect or improvement on habitat.

Posted on: 2010/9/15 9:57


Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?

Joined:
2010/6/26 11:19
From Along the Lehigh Above the Gap
Posts: 7054
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No he said the so called "trained experts" failed. So basically I think he is saying it is not worthwhile.

Posted on: 2010/9/15 12:16
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"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together, in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine. So tonight, I make a toast!"

http://bugflingerandfeatherlasher.blogspot.com/



Re: Upper Tully - habitat work?
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
Posts: 6985
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First off you can't just throw rock into the stream willy nilly. Chaz says some projects fail, thats right. Some are probably mis-prioritized within the watershed, maybe some have design flaws.

Chaz believes the single greatest habitat improvement is the addition of sufficient riparian buffers to both add cover (shade for thermal issues) and stabilization of the stream banks to control width/depth ratios necessary to provide good instream habitat. But planting trees in areas where w/d ratio is out of wack or the flood plains are not connected to the streams water edge is futile as well and every reach of stream requires assessment and analysis toward the BMP's that will yield the best bang for the buck. Often times with low budgets watershed groups will take small steps and employ mini-projects to combat local issues and often these fail because of the fluvial dynamics generated upstream being overwhelming for the area stabilized.

So Chaz paints most stream projects with this brush. Hes not a stream restoration guy, he's a buffer guy. Chaz knows alot about the stuff thats important to him and only enough to come off half cocked about the stuff he don't.

Habitat improvement projects / bank stabilization should certainly not be a "throw mud on the wall and see if it sticks" approach but it is successful the vast majority of the time, when done properly. And lately they are is peer reviewed by both the DEP/ PAF&B habitat division and the ACOE in cases of Joint permitting. (Channel re-alignment or encroachment). Its not easy to sneak past poor design or rather altered design, I know, I've tried. Most of the accepted habitat and bank rehabilitation devices have been ground proven for long enough now that their success rates and understanding of limitations have become second nature for those approving the designs at the DEP/PF&BC.

The Irony with Chaz's position on this is that often times the work he thumbs his nose at is necessary to stabilize the stream only long enough for the riparian buffer to become established. (albiet 25-30 years)

But I think what Chaz is targeting mostly is the group that puts in deflectors, sills and other habitat structures to improve fish habitat that without considering the streams bankful profiles and floodway usage, resulting in washed away projects because they are caught up in a proverbial sluice box.

Posted on: 2010/9/15 17:20
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