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Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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turkey wrote:
Contact your state reps. Tell them how you feel. They work for you. You'd be surprised what a few phone calls and emails can do. Corbett isn't any worse than Rendell was. The legislature is who you want to lean on.


Joe Emerick is my my rep and we did meet with him. He basically gave us the party line and also wants to eliminate the endangered species because it hampered business growth.

My local paper had a few articles this week about fracking and the money lost from not imposing an extraction tax. Today they reported that job growth has not been what the state stats showed. It is way less.

They all have to go.

Posted on: 2/24 17:10
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Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Rep. Maloney called them "A bunch of ideologues" Lke people who know something about a topic, issue or specialty. Like Jula Childs would have been a French Cuisine 'ideologue'. If you shake your head ruefully at the state of our fish and game commission, ESPECIALLY our game commission, you can look to statements, ideas and people like this. I see the scientists and policy people whip-sawed by collective whims of the loudest and often, dumbest people who can push them around.

Posted on: 2/27 22:26


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Lots of people on here fish streams such as Big Spring, Letort, Falling Spring, Fishing Creek, Penns Creek, Little Juniata, Spring Creek, Slate Run, Cedar Run, Lyman Run.

All streams managed under "fringe" fisheries management principles.

Many on here also like to fish unstocked wild trout streams. Many of those streams were on the stocking list in the past. Now many of them are unstocked, because of "fringe" fisheries management ideas. Would you fish them if they were stocked?

Not that many people on here fish Kish Creek for example. If it was managed under "fringe" principles, many more of you would fish it.

Most of the flyfishers on here who like fishing small, forested freestoners tend to go to streams that are unstocked, i.e. under "fringe" management.

Posted on: 2/28 9:40

Edited by troutbert on 2014/2/28 10:37:52


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"
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troutbert wrote:
Lots of people on here fish streams such as Big Spring, Letort, Falling Spring, Fishing Creek, Penns Creek, Little Juniata, Spring Creek, Slate Run, Cedar Run, Lyman Run.

All streams managed under "fringe" fisheries management principles.

Many on here also like to fish unstocked wild trout streams. Many of those streams were on the stocking list in the past. Now many of them are unstocked, because of "fringe" fisheries management ideas. Would you fish them if they were stocked?

Not that many people on here fish Kish Creek for example. If it was managed under "fringe" principles, many more of you would fish it.

Most of the flyfishers on here who like fishing small, forested freestoners tend to go to streams that are unstocked, i.e. under "fringe" management.



PATU boasts about 12,000 members. Some of whom don't fish. But others who flyfish or target wild fish on these streams may not be TU members.

PF&BC Sells (guessing here conservatively) 500,000 trout stamps.

That's 2.4%

Many of the PATU members couldn't care less if fish are wild. Subtract them because they would support stocking over modest wild trout pops and you probably drop it to below 2%.

I'd call that fringe.

I am not saying that the stance isn't noble and justified through science. It is...but that doesn't make the fringe an larger. Just more glittery.

So we got a pretty good thing going considering our percentage of total trout stamp sales.

Posted on: 2/28 19:54
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Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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2010/6/30 14:13
From Lehighton, PA
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Quote:

Maurice wrote:
PATU boasts about 12,000 members. Some of whom don't fish. But others who flyfish or target wild fish on these streams may not be TU members.

PF&BC Sells (guessing here conservatively) 500,000 trout stamps.

That's 2.4%

Many of the PATU members couldn't care less if fish are wild. Subtract them because they would support stocking over modest wild trout pops and you probably drop it to below 2%.

I'd call that fringe.

I am not saying that the stance isn't noble and justified through science. It is...but that doesn't make the fringe an larger. Just more glittery.

So we got a pretty good thing going considering our percentage of total trout stamp sales.


I understand your statement Maurice but I think the remark I highlighted is off-base. I think that many of our members DO CARE if the fish are wild. That's kind of the whole idea of our organization, to protect restore and conserve coldwater habitat for WILD trout and salmonids.

Sure, most of our members, including me, fish quite a bit in stocked rivers & streams but I don't think there's many of us out there that joined TU because of the stocked trout. The reason most of us join TU is because we actually care a little more about the protection and conseervation of trout and trout streams as a wild entity that is being lost.

Posted on: 3/13 15:11
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Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Quote:

Maurice wrote:
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Lots of people on here fish streams such as Big Spring, Letort, Falling Spring, Fishing Creek, Penns Creek, Little Juniata, Spring Creek, Slate Run, Cedar Run, Lyman Run.

All streams managed under "fringe" fisheries management principles.

Many on here also like to fish unstocked wild trout streams. Many of those streams were on the stocking list in the past. Now many of them are unstocked, because of "fringe" fisheries management ideas. Would you fish them if they were stocked?

Not that many people on here fish Kish Creek for example. If it was managed under "fringe" principles, many more of you would fish it.

Most of the flyfishers on here who like fishing small, forested freestoners tend to go to streams that are unstocked, i.e. under "fringe" management.



PATU boasts about 12,000 members. Some of whom don't fish. But others who flyfish or target wild fish on these streams may not be TU members.

PF&BC Sells (guessing here conservatively) 500,000 trout stamps.

That's 2.4%


What percent of the 500,000 are members of organizations that are on the other side, i.e. that advocate stocking over wild trout?

We've got 12,000, how many are members of groups like Western Clinton Sportsmen, Potter County Anglers, Traditional Anglers of PA, etc.?

That would be the apt comparison, not 12,000 compared to the rest of the 500,000.

The number of members of those groups is likely more than 12,000, but it is also surely a very small percentage of 500,000.

The vast majority of the 500,000 are not members of any group.

You have to compare fringe to fringe.


Posted on: 3/13 15:48


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Based on a contracted telephone survey of 1562 Pa trout anglers, only one percent of the anglers answered that all of their trout fishing trips were made to unstocked or wild trout waters and 23 percent said half or more of their trips were made to the aforementioned types of waters.

Posted on: 3/13 21:51


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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23 percent said HALF or more of their trips were made to unstocked, wild trout waters.

That's not fringe.

Anglers that fish 49% or 40% or 35% or less are not included in that number. But are still going wild trout fishing. It's part of the mix of their angling recreation.

What would the numbers be for anglers who do 20% or more of their fishing on wild trout streams?

What would the numbers be for anglers who average one or more trips per year on unstocked, wild trout waters?

The numbers for both would be far higher than 23%.

Posted on: 3/13 22:15


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Troutbert,
The link provided by the op included an assertion that TU is a fringe environmental group. In my post above I was not suggesting that wild trout anglers are a fringe group. I don't automatically associate TU with wild trout.

Posted on: 3/14 17:58


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Thankfully, TU, the "fringe environmental group," is out there. TU is responsible for repairing many of the ravages that have been inflicted on many streams over the years. TU supports the progressive policies of the present BOD of the PFBC as these commissioners try to manage streams and try to protect them appropriately.

It has been proven in quite a few studies that hatchery fish actually have a deleterious influence on populations of trout in streams. Many streams, notably Spring Creek and recently the LJR (where fingerling stocking was proven to be worthless), have seen their populations of wild trout increase dramatically after the ending of stocking. This provides better long-term fishing than the stocking of hatchery trout does.

I admit that hatchery fish serve their purpose in a catch 'em and kill 'em environment where trout cannot reproduce. But, I am one who believes that hatchery dumbbells should NOT be stocked over Class A or B populations of wild trout because the stocked fish depress the total population of fish over time for multiple reasons.

Anyhow, kudos to TU, that "fringe environmental group," for what it does and for its support of the present far-sighted group of fish commissioners.

Posted on: 3/14 21:33


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"
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Hmmmmm, TU represents 2% (12,000) of Trout Stamp buyers in PA. But 23% (Over 100,000) have interests in line with TU's mission but 88% of them are not members of TU.

So from a numbers stand point TU is only about 12% anglers interested in this faction of fishing. Thats fringe.

And members of TU may or may not mind catching hatchery fish.

Sounds like some of us are carrying the load for all these freeloaders fishing for wild trout.

Hey I love to fish for wild trout, but most of my fishing through the year is on stocked waters with wild trout. Most of these would be bleak prospects for wild trout if not stocked. I am affraid I wouldn't even fall into the 23% category. But more than 50% of my catches are wild fish.

I ain't saying stock the class A's or even B's so that put's the line at C's for me. And especially where there is heavy angler use. Plenty of fish means plenty of fun after the crowds die out.

If you push back on the convention to unreasonable levels you get labeled as fringe. Look at PATrouts stocking policy compared to the National policy. It goes a step beyond native trout to ALL wild trout. Extreme...Fringe. From a philosophical standpoint.

Its not surprising that TU is perceived as such.










Posted on: 3/15 0:49
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Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Wild and native trout face many issues in PA - AMD, habitat loss, physical barriers incl dams and culverts, acid rain, channel damage, harvest in stocked streams, etc. TU does some great things on these. But the history of TU may play role in what imho is an overemphasis on stocking today given the current policies of the pfbc and the political realities of PA... History of TU from TU's website, first two sentences:

"July 2009 marked the 50th anniversary of TU's founding on the banks of the Au Sable River near Grayling, Michigan. The 16 fishermen who gathered at the home of George Griffith were united by their love of trout fishing, and by their growing discontent with the state's practice of stocking its waters with "cookie cutter trout"—catchable-sized hatchery fish."

When TU works on AMD, habitat loss, dams and culverts, acid rain, channel damage, etc., probably few of the state's fishermen would mind, and many would probably approve.

And I am sure TU did great things in getting the resource based class A system etc., set up in PA, and imho it's a good system.

But where TU continues to work against stocking today in a state where the vast majority of trout anglers do at least some stockie fishing, they may wind up in angler v angler disagreements that TU as a relatively small group may not win. Even where TU does win against stocking in PA today, it may be at the cost of alienating other anglers.

I give a few clams to the TU/Orvis culvert replacement program, where gifts are matched, and have spent some time surveying streams with a TU biologist, hope to do it again.

But stocking may not be the only or even the major issue facing our state's wild and native trout today, and spending too much energy on it may not always be the most productive path, imho....

Posted on: 3/15 7:56

Edited by k-bob on 2014/3/15 8:13:26
Edited by k-bob on 2014/3/15 8:15:18
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Edited by k-bob on 2014/3/15 8:23:25
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Edited by k-bob on 2014/3/15 8:24:30


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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Well thankfully only a few chapters of TU stock fish. To put it into perspective, there are 67 counties in PA of which 63 have at least one will trout stream, according to the Wild Trout stream list. there are 53 TU Chapters, but too much of their efforts are directed to streams that will always be stocked, diverting funds from otherwise worthy projects.
If you were to go to the Chapter 93 list, you would find the overwhelming number of wild trout streams have some kind of impairment. These streams need advocates and restoration help, that would expand the wild trout opportunities and raise awareness among the general public about wild trout, education, and hopefully improve fishing too. That's what should be focused on, not some project where PFBC has and will continue to stock.
I'm not against stocking, I strongly feel that directing TU funds to stream sections that are stocked is NOT part of the overall TU Mission.

Posted on: 3/15 8:22
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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2013/10/29 14:04
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
Well thankfully only a few chapters of TU stock fish. To put it into perspective, there are 67 counties in PA of which 63 have at least one will trout stream, according to the Wild Trout stream list. there are 53 TU Chapters, but too much of their efforts are directed to streams that will always be stocked, diverting funds from otherwise worthy projects.
If you were to go to the Chapter 93 list, you would find the overwhelming number of wild trout streams have some kind of impairment. These streams need advocates and restoration help, that would expand the wild trout opportunities and raise awareness among the general public about wild trout, education, and hopefully improve fishing too. That's what should be focused on, not some project where PFBC has and will continue to stock.
I'm not against stocking, I strongly feel that directing TU funds to stream sections that are stocked is NOT part of the overall TU Mission.


I agree with the exception of places like the Yough tailwater. The Yough tailwater is currently a stocked fishery, but it has everything needed to be a wild fishery except good spawning habitat. I think TU can and should lead the way on finding a way to make the Yough a wild fishery.

Posted on: 3/15 10:02


Re: Trout Unlimited is a "fringe environmental group"

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[quote]
shortrod2 wrote:
Quote:


I think TU can and should lead the way on finding a way to make the Yough a wild fishery.


Have you brought this up with your chapter president and other chapter leaders? And/or state-wide PATU leaders? And given them ideas on how you think this might be accomplished?


Posted on: 3/15 11:25



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