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Re: State Park Closings?
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afishinado wrote:

The point is whether you fish cold-water, warmwater, in lakes or streams, hunt, hike, bike, bird watch, kayak, whatever, we should all strive to preserve what we have in the most natural state possible. Mother nature gave it to us, and its our job to try to preserve and protect it.


We alter our environment in many ways to make it more useful and pleasurable. Poe Valley Lake and all other man-made impoundments are just examples of the same. It seems to me that in deciding whether the dam should be rebuilt, the only interest you take into consideration is your own recreational interest, regardless of whether those interests are adequately served with other available resources. In that, I believe you are disregarding the interests of a lot of other people.

Sure, it makes your position sound more reasonable to claim that the waterway is naturally open and free-flowing-- in fact, that's very convenient to your position. But, it doesn't do anything for all the other citizens that enjoy the benefits of a man-made impoundment.

*PS- A quick check confirms that the dam has been in existence since 1937

Posted on: 2009/6/2 13:54
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I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: State Park Closings?

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From Bozeman
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I do feel that the recreation benefits of such an impoundment will not get adequate representation on this site. I didn't really expect it to.

I do think that the majority probably prefers to have the lake. If the funding for the park were to be available, this would have to be considered.

Am I for more cold water fisheries? Yes. I don't think it's in our (FFermen) best interest to move forward with a blind eye to the needs/wants of the populous. Many trout fishermen are guilty of just that.

Ask any bass fisherman what he thinks. It's arguably the most popular brand of fishing, so his opinion should be taken under consideration.

Posted on: 2009/6/2 14:07


Re: State Park Closings?

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Quote:

jayL wrote:
I do feel that the recreation benefits of such an impoundment will not get adequate representation on this site. I didn't really expect it to.

I do think that the majority probably prefers to have the lake. If the funding for the park were to be available, this would have to be considered.

Am I for more cold water fisheries? Yes. I don't think it's in our (FFermen) best interest to move forward with a blind eye to the needs/wants of the populous. Many trout fishermen are guilty of just that.



If you think stream conservationists should feel guilty, then you should feel very guilty every time you fish Spring Creek. That stream would be a polluted sucker stream if it had not been for stream conservationists.

Posted on: 2009/6/2 19:58


Re: State Park Closings?

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troutbert wrote:
Quote:

jayL wrote:
I do feel that the recreation benefits of such an impoundment will not get adequate representation on this site. I didn't really expect it to.

I do think that the majority probably prefers to have the lake. If the funding for the park were to be available, this would have to be considered.

Am I for more cold water fisheries? Yes. I don't think it's in our (FFermen) best interest to move forward with a blind eye to the needs/wants of the populous. Many trout fishermen are guilty of just that.



If you think stream conservationists should feel guilty, then you should feel very guilty every time you fish Spring Creek. That stream would be a polluted sucker stream if it had not been for stream conservationists.


I do not appreciate your putting words in my mouth. Incorrect ones, at that.

Posted on: 2009/6/2 20:00


Re: State Park Closings?

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JackM wrote:
90% of the thousands of quality wild trout stream miles Pennsylvania has need no help from anyone other than to be respected.


Maybe you could explain that statement.

Posted on: 2009/6/2 20:23


Re: State Park Closings?
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Quote:

JackM wrote:
90% of the thousands of quality wild trout stream miles Pennsylvania has need no help from anyone other than to be respected.


Maybe you could explain that statement.


Sure, if you are having trouble understanding. It was a response to this:

"Bottom line is you have nothing invested in wild trout except the gas to get there so it is not surprising how you feel about the resource you exploit with no return. "

As if trying to prevent other citizens from having recreational resources they can enjoy is a prerequisite to be "allowed" the privilege of enjoying streams and trout provided by Mother Nature.

Posted on: 2009/6/2 21:09
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Re: State Park Closings?
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Jack wrote: “….the only interest you (Afish) take into consideration is your own recreational interest, regardless of whether those interests are adequately served with other available resources. In that, I believe you are disregarding the interests of a lot of other people.”

Not true at all Jack, my recreational interests by a large measure include warmwater fishing in the late spring through the entire summer and early fall. In recent weeks I have spent more time perusing panfish and catching an occasional bass in my kayak and wading ON A MAN-MADE LAKE IN A STATE PARK less than a 10 minute drive from my home. In addition, soon I will store my 4 and 5wt trout rods and break out my heavier bass outfits for the rest of the summer. I may occasionally trout fish during cooler weather this summer during the trike or iso hatch, but most of my recreational time will be spent warmwater fishing in lakes, rivers and streams.

The fact of the matter is that there are many warm water lakes, rivers and streams to fish here in SE PA, and very few coldwater fishing opportunities. The same could be said for where you live SW PA. And yes, Central PA is blessed with the most coldwater streams but a lot less than there used to be. I’ll stand by my belief that coldwater streams are a rare treasure in this State and should have the first priority for preservation.

Check out the map below. From an historical perspective, few coldwater streams are remaining and we should all do as much as we can to preserve them. While I realize that some of the brookie streams have been taken over by wild brown trout, you still get the idea that coldwater streams and certainly native brookie streams have declined drastically in PA and the entire NE.

Jack wrote: “If Pennsylvania had too few wild trout streams, then your reductio ad absurdum argument might have some force.”

Right back atchya……You’re contention that PA or specifically Central PA has too many or at least an over abundance of coldwater fishing is a reductio ad absurdum argument to me. You mentioned the hundreds of fly fishing anglers traipsing around the stream at Penns. The reason they are there is that many have drive several hours or more to Central PA just to find decent wild trout fishing. PA has an unbelievable amount of places to fish for warmwater species, and way too few coldwater streams, and that opinion comes from a bass, panfish, as well a trout afishinado.


Mo wrote: “Beware of the mole who tries to compromise your principles and YOUR values for the good of the masses. Otherwise the masses will always win.”

Mo wrote (to Jack): “Bottom line is you have nothing invested in wild trout except the gas to get there so it is not surprising how you feel about the resource you exploit with no return.”


Jack, I suggest you save a few dollars you spend on gas traveling around to find a wild trout stream and donate it to TU. Maybe you can help TU preserve and enhance a coldwater stream near your home and the gas savings would more than make up for your contribution. Good luck.

Attach file:



jpg  BT habitat loss.jpg (56.93 KB)
53_4a2684b3ad5ca.jpg 720X540 px

Posted on: 2009/6/3 10:13


Re: State Park Closings?

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Good points afish. I still think that we need to consider the public stance on such issues before going to war on a debate such as the one surrounding the poe. I don't disagree that cold water resources may be the most important, but we've got to pick our battles. This may not be winnable.

That's the only point I was trying to make, troutbert. You make an absolute ass of yourself when you twist and contort statements around like that.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 10:19


Re: State Park Closings?

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From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Afish,

While I agree with you that the wild trout opportunities are a fraction of what they were before white men settled the state, also keep in mind there are about 3000 wild trout streams in this state, and growing. Things are much, much better than they were, for instance, during the lumber boom.

While I too live in SE PA and enjoy traveling to Penns, its not like I can't find wild trout much, much closer to home. Penns is special because of its size, and you can group Penns, LJR, Spring, BFC, etc. into that mix. Wild trout streams OF THAT SIZE are indeed rare in this state. But wild trout streams, in general, are not rare at all. There's 50 in Berks County alone, 13 in Chester, 23 in Lancaster. Many people seem to travel to well-known places, like Penns, and ignore some really good fishing close to home. I've only lived here for 2 years, and I talk to other fishermen all the time. I'm amazed when I mention a not so secret stream and find these people had no idea it had fish in it.

I personally would like to see the dam on Big Poe go for good. But like Jay said, this is perhaps a battle we cannot win. Ignoring the majorities opinion, and taking away their recreation, in order to have a minor positive effect on our recreation is not good policy.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 10:29


Re: State Park Closings?
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Unfortunately, even if I hit the Powerball for 100 Million and donated it all to TU, they would neither be interested, nor would it make much sense to spend it, in southwestern PA to improve a wild trout stream that would be capable of sustaining a recreational fishery like the Little J, Spring, Fishing or Penns Creeks (which are pretty much the only "wild" trout streams I waste gas traveling to.

I don't disagree with what you are saying about the value of coldwater streams. However, I disagree that there are too few coldwater streams in the Poe Valley and that there is no countervailing need for preserving the warmwater recreational value of Poe Lake. In addition, I stand by my original statement that many, too many, coldwater anglers disregard the recreational interests of the vast majority of citizens in order to advance their own coldwater interests.

I ignored Mo's attempts to imply that I owe something to someone for making use of these resources and I will ignore any implication in your replies as well. I treat all such waters with appropriate respect, get involved when I feel they are subject to real (not imagined or exagerated) threats, and do as much as possible to minimize my impact on them and their inhabitants when I do get an opportuinty to enjoy them.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 11:10
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I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: State Park Closings?
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Well thought out posts. I'm actually going to take the cop-out position and claim to be in agreement with both JackM and JayL as well as pcray and afishinado.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 11:43


Re: State Park Closings?
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Dave, if you pulled that off, you should get to work immediately on the Grand Unified Theory of The Cosmos.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 11:52
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I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: State Park Closings?
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If 90% of the wild trout streams need no help from conserbvationists....and thats enough for all folks and the conservationists went away. Would the number of coldwater fisheries go up or down?

It is the 10% that need help and receive it that creates a cushion for the 90% that do not. that cushion is in the form of organized groups who can act and campaign against threats to the 90%.

Without those "feet on the ground" conservationists who can react quickly to threats, our resources would be devistated by "progress".

All you have to do is run the last 100 years conservation curve in reverse to see the result. The cold water conservation strides over the last 100 years have provided us the wealth of opportunities we enjoy today. A reverse of this trend would be devistating in a far shorter time frame than it took to improve.

I can understand how people who are new or novices at a particular activity can be naive about the factors relating to their enjoyment. Typically those with an interest and appreciation of the resources they enjoy begin to feel a sence of reciprocity toward the activity they enjoy. What baffles me is how folks who have been "at it a while" can ignore the benefits of those trying to help the very entertainment they enjoy. It would be one thing to keep quiet and let us fools waste our time. It is quite another to incite inuendo that we are self centered greed mongers with no regard for others who are wasting our time.

Assuming these opportunities are provided solely by Mother Nature is absurd and insulting. Where was Ma Nat in the 20's when they were floating barrels of oil down Oil Creek and Logs down the Susky and every moving water was dammed by progress and the fishing sucked. Where was she then????? Huh?????

Posted on: 2009/6/3 12:20
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: State Park Closings?
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Jack,
My manuscript of GUTTC is still in chapter one... and not going anywhere. The publisher said they wanted someone more decisive.


Posted on: 2009/6/3 12:31


Re: State Park Closings?
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Maurice, where were you when the oil was floating down the creeks? If it helps you feel better about your sacrifices to look down your nose at others who don't make the same sacrifice, I won't take that away from you, but I also don't want you to kid yourself into thinking that you can guilt-trip me into believing that self-interest isn't at work in many folks who advocate for cold-water resources against the interest of other recreational uses.

I have never contended that the folks that do this are "self centered greed mongers with no regard for others who are wasting [y]our time." I do think that the self-interest that motivates a good many clouds their ability to objectively and fairly consider competing interests and that at times, activities are conducted and battles waged that are wrong-headed and/or futile. In the situation we are discussing-- the rebuilding of Poe Lake-- I think this is exactly what is at work.

Posted on: 2009/6/3 12:48
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I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow



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