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Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

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2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
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To quote Pcray-What about timber? Heck, they build a lot more mud roads in the backcountry per amount of product than the gas companies do. The erosion has to be far worse from them. They also run a lot more trucks over our little local roads, causing road damage and bridge damage, etc. Why aren't they taxed MORE than the gas companies?

PCray, the gas companies haul a ton more loads across roads than the timber companies and they are much heavier, hence they do more damage. Not to mention the fact that timber haulers are shut down during spring break up, gas is not because they need to keep feeding the drill rigs. Did routes 44 and 144 ever break down from timber hauling in the past the way they did last spring from the gas companies? NO! I live in Tioga County which has a history of timber operations and the locals have seen roads damaged in ways never imaginable in the past over the last few years. Comparing the damage being done by gas companies to roads to that being done by any other industry up here is insane.

As for the roads timber comanies build to get trees out they are used temporarily and retired and seeded to reduce erosion and sedimentation, gas company roads are built and stay there unseeded for the life of the wells with regular pick up traffic. Once again the number of loads being run is not comparable.

As for extraction tax, the companies could pay something comparable to what every other state has in place and still see stiff fines for environmental damage, therefore being rewarded for operating safely by not paying fines and still pay for the huge damage they are doing to the infrastructure of Pennsylvania.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 15:09


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!
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2006/9/9 17:32
From Gettysburg
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Hey Pcray - please run for governor!

He's got my vote.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 15:24


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
PCray, the gas companies haul a ton more loads across roads than the timber companies and they are much heavier, hence they do more damage.


The gas trucks are much more concentrated in time frame, but over the entire life, I don't think what you say is true. To frack a well, they bring in a lot of trucks, but they do it once and done. A given well will have a bunch of water trucks in and out for about 2 weeks to produce 15-20 years worth of gas before it needs to be refracked. I do understand that I'm only talking about the water trucks, there's other heavy equipment as well.

Quote:
As for the roads timber comanies build to get trees out they are used temporarily and retired and seeded to reduce erosion and sedimentation, gas company roads are built and stay there unseeded for the life of the wells with regular pick up traffic.


Not true, or at least, not always true. Most of the roads I travel in our state and national forests were originally timber roads, and in many cases still are.

While I think the state may be getting enough from the gas companies for the roads (not commenting on whether they use it for the roads, though), I do agree municipalities do not. Much of the road damage is on the small city and township roads that are maintained by the municipality, not the state. The local taxes that the gas companies pay go to the location of wherever the base of operations is, not where the well is. I'm open to looking at that system to change it so that the money goes to the municipality where the actual work is being done, and if that isn't enough, I'm open to adding a LOCAL tax to reimburse the municipalities for road damage.

And on the gas well roads, you say regular pick up traffic. A single pickup comes by maybe every 6 months at the wells near us. And those loads are not heavy at all, it's a pickup truck.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 15:34


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
Posts: 452
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Well tenders are at wells much more than every six months, I work with them every day. A light load when the roads are steep and wet causses ruts which leads to accelerated erosion. How many wells are near you in thorndale, I grew up down there and have never seen one. Timber roads being built now are normally gated off, they are the yellow and black gates in Potter, Clinton and Tioga counties on SFL. You continuosly want to use facts from the shallow wells out on the ANF and apply them to Marcellus, they are not the same.

The state does not get money from the gas companies for roads unless the gas companies need a road repaired quickly to stop the drilling or frac work from being impeded which is what is often publicized by them as look at us we are fixing the roads. Once again did 44/144 ever fall apart from logging jobs the way it did last spring? NO. anadarko fixed it so they could continue to work, not out of the kindness of their hearts.

A given well will have a bunch of traffic for a few weeks for a frac job, then repeat that anywhwere from 4-14 times depending on the number of wells on the pad. At some point this will come at a time when the roads cannot handle heavy hauling, ie spring break up, and more damage is done than at other times. Log trucks are not allowed to haul at that time. Additionally, there is the entire rig move which is much heavier loads usually several dozen and all of the additional equipment needed:several trailers for living quarters, rain tanks, the log trucks necessary to remove the timber that was there prior to the well pad, equipment to log (sp?) the drill job, equipment to build the pad, all of the stone trucks to build the pad.

I would like to invite you to Potter county for a day, where I work, and show you the damage done and ask you to show previous damage from any other industry here that rivals it.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 15:51


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
How many wells are near you in thorndale


Place where I grew up: Leechburg, PA 5 wells in sight of my dad's porch.
Where I went to college: Indiana, PA
Where we have a cabin and spend a lot of time: Tionesta, PA

Since college, have lived in: Coudersport, PA, State College, PA.

Quote:
You continuosly want to use facts from the shallow wells out on the ANF and apply them to Marcellus, they are not the same.


Process almost identical, just on a smaller scale. I agree the differences require a change in regulations, especially as it pertains to water permits and water treatment, and pressure requirements on all of the seals. And yeah, the # of water trucks is much higher, though they're exactly the same trucks.

Quote:
The state does not get money from the gas companies for roads unless the gas companies need a road repaired quickly to stop the drilling or frac work from being impeded.


Incorrect. Gas companies pay state taxes, just like every other industry, including those that move heavy equipment around. Gas company employees pay state taxes, whether they reside in state or not.

Quote:
Once again did 44/144 ever fall apart from logging jobs the way it did last spring?


Nope, but hundreds of other PA roads have.

Quote:
I would like to invite you to Potter county for a day, where I work, and show you the damage done and ask you to show previous damage from any other industry here that rivals it.


I'll be there in 2 weeks on business (non-gas related), last time I was there was December, though. The timber boom in its heyday was way worse, though neither of us were alive to see it then. Since then, Potter County has had it easy, no major industry at all. You were perfectly happy there when it was someone else mining and burning the coal, and someone else drilling the gas, yet the pipe came to your house and so did the power lines, and you could buy all the stuff that coal produced, as if it all had no impact at all.

NC PA got all the benefits of our fossil fuel driven society for years, without the problems. I understand your shock at seeing it all, but I've seen it all for years, and yes, I see the Marcellus wells too, as well as strip mines, acid rain streams, AMD streams, and even oil wells and oil processing facilities. I'm not saying everything's rosy and just to look the other way, no, quite the opposite, you need to watch it closely and make good decisions. But outrage is the wrong emotion, and its not the end of the world for Potter County. Will there be damage? Yep. But you'll still have hunting and trout fishing and all of that.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 15:57

Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/3/9 16:15:31
Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/3/9 16:17:54
Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/3/9 16:22:47
Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/3/9 16:24:57


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
Posts: 452
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all of them were shallow, right? Coudy never had a Marcellus until two years ago. If there was a Marcellus how many wells on the pad? Have they been completed? How many Marcellus were being drilled in Indiana when you were in college? How many Marcellus have been drilled in Tionesta?

Posted on: 2011/3/9 16:01


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
Posts: 452
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Oh, did not see the process is the same remark, not entirely true. Especially considering you were talking about the number of loads brought in which prompted my comments about damage caused. Marcellus wells need many, many more loads hauled in, something you have admitted in the past. I am going to let this go, but see my PM.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 16:04


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2009/4/4 8:58
From Reading
Posts: 600
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Pcray you may decide to not to answer this question but I have to ask. Those 5 wells you can see from your dad's front porch. Are they on his property? Have you or your family had any offers or are you exploring a drilling opportunity? It would explain your constant defense of an industry that has the potential to cause tremendous damage (the way it is currently done) to something you seem to love (the outdoors).

Posted on: 2011/3/9 16:28


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Nope, not his property, he only owns a half acre, and I only own a quarter of an acre. I wish we were in on it, but alas, we are not. All we gained directly from them were good deer stands, lol.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 16:54


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
all of them were shallow, right?


When I lived there, yes, all shallow. There's Marcellus in the area now, and I have seen em outside of work, and been on the pads for work.

Quote:
Coudy never had a Marcellus until two years ago.


Correct, they didn't have ANY until two years ago, all of the shallow gas was well west of that.

Quote:
If there was a Marcellus how many wells on the pad?


Already said they weren't Marcellus. They were shallow gas wells, a single well on a pad, placed on a grid about every 1/4 mile. Marcellus wells typically put 8 or 12 on a pad, if that company has the rights to enough surrounding land anyway. But the grid spacing is every 2-3 miles instead of every quarter mile, so the actual number of wells is similar.

Quote:
Have they been completed?


Yep, well, the final landscaping crew hasn't smoothed out the one yet. Of the ones by my dad's, 2 were fracked in the last 3 years. I went out to observe the one weekend, and took some stream samples from the nearby stream too. Dang things go all night, light up the house at 2 a.m. like its noon, and shake everything to all heck. But only lasted 2 nights of the fracking. Those are shallow wells though, yes, there's a shallow gas boom on as well. On a shallow well, from the moment the company shows to when they leave is about a year. But in that year, the initial landscaping crew will be there a week, then it'll sit empty a month, then an crew will show up and set up the equipment and the plastic lined wastewater pool, and it'll sit empty, then the drilling crew is there for a week or two, then it sits empty again. Then the frack crew and water trucks show, and work nonstop for about 2 days, and then the site sits empty another month. Etc. ad nauseum.

Of the Marcellus wells, no, the ones I've been on are not complete, and I've never been physically present during the frack, the only times I've gone on site were with drill crews. They take a lot longer overall for a given pad. Same basic process, but once they finish a well, the drilling crew comes again and starts well #2, and the whole thing starts over. Again and again up to 12 wells per pad.

Quote:
How many Marcellus were being drilled in Indiana when you were in college?


None, just literally thousands of shallow wells. But I've been back recently, and yes, there's Marcellus going on. Haliburton trucks everywhere, I think Homer City is their regional base.

Quote:
How many Marcellus have been drilled in Tionesta?


2 that I know of in the general area, and roughly 40,000 shallow wells in that immediate area.


Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:08

Edited by pcray1231 on 2011/3/9 17:45:54


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4422
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he proclaims the gas industry is the answer to all our needs, but he won't put a severance tax on them like EVERY other state does.
the gas companies are the answer to HIS needs.
these companies ARE going to drill here, they WILL pay any tax we put on them. HE is the one making out from this.
and if he really cared about the state, how about giving any PA based drilling companies a break, try to keep some of the big bucks here. give incentives to pa based companies that want to get in the game.
the guy is so far up their asses he'll need a GPS to find his way out.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:14


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
HE is the one making out from this.


My company wins whether they drill here or elsewhere just the same. It wins whether its gas, coal, oil, nuclear, wind, geothermal, or solar. I don't work for a gas company, nor does anyone in my family work for them or have any gas on their lands. The industry in general is a customer of the company I work for, but so is every other energy industry.

And my salary is in no way dependent on the success of the gas industry. My knowledge of it somewhat has to do with my job. But my interest is solely as a citizen.

In fact, I've stated many times, if it were up to me, the world would run on nuclear, we'd run breeder reactors which would cut way down on the waste problem, and cars would run on hydrogen fuel cells which would be a nice side effect of the nuclear. There are far fewer problems with nuclear, per unit of energy produced, than any other type of energy out there.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:24


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
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pcray, I was talking about our beloved governor, sorry if you thought I meant you

Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:28


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4422
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and hydrogen is good gas!!

Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:29


Re: Our Governor.....Incredible!!!!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13344
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Quote:
and hydrogen is good gas!!


Depends greatly on how it is produced. Right now, no, its much dirtier than oil or gas. But it could be made cleanly.

Posted on: 2011/3/9 17:40



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