Low Stream Flows, Marcellus Water Withdrawals

[troutbert]

Stream flow levels are real low right now across NC PA. So what does that mean for Marcellus water withdrawals?

Do they keep taking water from the streams when things are this low?

Has anyone been tracking this and have some real info?

On a related topic, I'm seeing a lot of Marcellus water tank trucks running on Route 144 between Bellefonte and Milesburg. Does anyone know where they are getting water?

 

[jjsjigs]

Those trucks might be discharging frac water instead of taking. (do they say Fresh Water only on the sides of the trailers?)

Up here in BradCo we have minimum flow level on the books. If the CFS goes to it or below it the water trucks have to find an alternative spot to fill. This CFS # is determined by the Suskie River Basin Committee/DEP.

Right now, many of our fill sites on tribs have been shut down. However, they have alternative sites on the NB Suskie. Which I doubt will be shut down.

If it does... the frac trucks just zip 15 miles into NYS and fill up. NYS DEC doesn't have any regs on the books yet about filling from the Chemung River/tribs. ( I think...??? I could be wrong on this info as of lately since NYS has been eyeing the frac trucks) But last year the trucks would invade NYS all the time and fill up in the Chemung River just over the border into NYS.

 

[troutbert]

jjsjigs wrote:
Those trucks might be discharging frac water instead of taking. (do they say Fresh Water only on the sides of the trailers?)

Yes, they say Fresh Water.

I heard that they got permission to buy treated sewage effluent from the UAJA sewage plant which serves State College and the university. And they got permission to buy water from Bellefonte Borough (The Big Spring).

Taking water from either of those would reduce flow in Spring Creek. I guess I'll have to follow those trucks like a TV detective. I don't have a fedora though.

 

[franklin]

troutbert wrote:

jjsjigs wrote:
Those trucks might be discharging frac water instead of taking. (do they say Fresh Water only on the sides of the trailers?)

Yes, they say Fresh Water.

I heard that they got permission to buy treated sewage effluent from the UAJA sewage plant which serves State College and the university. And they got permission to buy water from Bellefonte Borough (The Big Spring).

Taking water from either of those would reduce flow in Spring Creek. I guess I'll have to follow those trucks like a TV detective. I don't have a fedora though.

State should sell then some water out of Sayer Lake.

 

[troutbert]

franklin wrote:

troutbert wrote:

jjsjigs wrote:
Those trucks might be discharging frac water instead of taking. (do they say Fresh Water only on the sides of the trailers?)

Yes, they say Fresh Water.

I heard that they got permission to buy treated sewage effluent from the UAJA sewage plant which serves State College and the university. And they got permission to buy water from Bellefonte Borough (The Big Spring).

Taking water from either of those would reduce flow in Spring Creek. I guess I'll have to follow those trucks like a TV detective. I don't have a fedora though.

State should sell then some water out of Sayer Lake.

That would be better than reducing the flow of Spring Creek and Bald Eagle Creek between the mouth of Spring Creek and the lake.

And they could take water out of Beech Creek too, which is polluted by mine drainage.

 

[jjsjigs]

I'm curious on why they don't just take the crap AMD water like from the Shamokin Creek in Northumberland Co. Does it have to be all clean and pure? They are just putting a bunch of chemicals into the water... what's a little bit of AMD gonna do in the grand scheme of things.

 

[troutbert]

They take water from the "Red" Moshannon Creek, which is severely AMD impacted, so there apparently is no technical problem with using AMD water.

But I suspect that the Susquehanna River Basin Commission probably uses the same parameters for withdrawal of water from the AMD streams as other streams, i.e. a certain percentage flow based on historical flow levels, etc.

Without any consideration for the fact that it would make much more sense to take a LOT of water out of an essentially lifeless stream, close to gas wells, as an alternative to running trucks much longer distances to take water from streams that support healthy trout populations.

 

[albatross]

Near my parents home in Cameron County, the Marcellus drillers were buying water from Emporium Water Co. and trucking it 20 miles over the hiways to the Sterling Run area. The water company was taking the water from Salt Run which eventually flows in to the Driftwood Branch. The Driftwood Branch flows right through Sterling Run, so all the truck traffic is completely unnecessary. You could let the water from Salt Run flow downstream and pump it out in Sterling Run and there would actually be more water in that 20 mile section of stream.

There is no common sense applied to these processes.

 

[troutbert]

albatross wrote:
Near my parents home in Cameron County, the Marcellus drillers were buying water from Emporium Water Co. and trucking it 20 miles over the hiways to the Sterling Run area. The water company was taking the water from Salt Run which eventually flows in to the Driftwood Branch. The Driftwood Branch flows right through Sterling Run, so all the truck traffic is completely unnecessary. You could let the water from Salt Run flow downstream and pump it out in Sterling Run and there would actually be more water in that 20 mile section of stream.

There is no common sense applied to these processes.

Exactly. And there are some AMD streams in that area, too, including some in the Sterling Run drainage, if I'm not mistaken. And Dents Run is AMD polluted. They could use that water.

The explanation for why they do this is as follows. The municipality is licensed to withdraw X amount of water for the public water supply. As long as they don't exceed that limit, they have no legal issue. So, they can sell the difference between their permitted limit and what the town is actually using.

So it's probably easier, from a bureaucratic paperwork standpoint, to just buy it from the municipality, rather than applying for a permit to take the water out of the Driftwood Branch further down or from one of the AMD streams.

So why the gas company and municipality do what they do is obvious. But the result is obviously ludicrous, as your example showed.

 

[tomgamber]

albatross wrote:
Near my parents home in Cameron County, the Marcellus drillers were buying water from Emporium Water Co. and trucking it 20 miles over the hiways to the Sterling Run area. The water company was taking the water from Salt Run which eventually flows in to the Driftwood Branch. The Driftwood Branch flows right through Sterling Run, so all the truck traffic is completely unnecessary. You could let the water from Salt Run flow downstream and pump it out in Sterling Run and there would actually be more water in that 20 mile section of stream.

There is no common sense applied to these processes.

Greg, I bet there is something that makes it possible (water quality designation?) to draw from Salt but not the Driftwood branch. Still makes more sense your way but I don't see them spending gas money they don't have too regardless of whether it'd be good for the streams or not.

 

[franklin]

troutbert wrote:

albatross wrote:
Near my parents home in Cameron County, the Marcellus drillers were buying water from Emporium Water Co. and trucking it 20 miles over the hiways to the Sterling Run area. The water company was taking the water from Salt Run which eventually flows in to the Driftwood Branch. The Driftwood Branch flows right through Sterling Run, so all the truck traffic is completely unnecessary. You could let the water from Salt Run flow downstream and pump it out in Sterling Run and there would actually be more water in that 20 mile section of stream.

There is no common sense applied to these processes.

Exactly. And there are some AMD streams in that area, too, including some in the Sterling Run drainage, if I'm not mistaken. And Dents Run is AMD polluted. They could use that water.

The explanation for why they do this is as follows. The municipality is licensed to withdraw X amount of water for the public water supply. As long as they don't exceed that limit, they have no legal issue. So, they can sell the difference between their permitted limit and what the town is actually using.

So it's probably easier, from a bureaucratic paperwork standpoint, to just buy it from the municipality, rather than applying for a permit to take the water out of the Driftwood Branch further down or from one of the AMD streams.

So why the gas company and municipality do what they do is obvious. But the result is obviously ludicrous, as your example showed.

I'm not so sure it is cheaper for a driller to get the water from a municipal source compared to getting a permit. There are a lot of trips to a single well. Those trucks don't have a lot of capacity. It's a good distance from some of those towns selling water to the wells. If they had a local source of AMD water they might save quite a bit. Have you considered writing up your idea in a letter to the SRBC or DNR? Maybe to a large drilling company? The PR value to a gas driller also has some value. I like your idea.

 

[trout17]

troutbert,

I am curious where you heard that the drillers were actually drawing from Moshanno Creek. The last I had heard was that the drillers reluctantly agreed to use that water but were concerned about the chemicals in the water already and some effects it may have on equipment. It would make sense to use that water, I mjust haven't heard they were.

Jim Kearney

 

[riverwhy]

Nice, they only want our clean water

 

[troutbert]

trout17 wrote:
troutbert,

I am curious where you heard that the drillers were actually drawing from Moshanno Creek. The last I had heard was that the drillers reluctantly agreed to use that water but were concerned about the chemicals in the water already and some effects it may have on equipment. It would make sense to use that water, I mjust haven't heard they were.

Jim Kearney

There is a water withdrawal site at the bridge a few miles from the village of Moshannon, and it looked to me like it was actively being used. What quantities they've taken there, I don't know.

 

[bearfisherman]

Here in Butler County, they are still pulling water out of the Connoquenessing. They are pumping it into a reservoir pond, then sending to a couple different frac sites.

 

[bikerfish]

bearfisherman, I noticed the connie has been getting really low, I mean really low. in places you could walk across without getting your ankles wet. I've never seen it like that and I've lived near it my entire life.
there are at least a dozen well pads using water. while it's not a great trout stream, there is still fish and other aquatic life that depends on it to live, making it no less important than any other stream in this state.
funny, the town of harmony got a state grant to put in a canoe launch area, but now there is no water to paddle a canoe in! ironic.

 

[bearfisherman]

Yeah, it is bad. Even up in Butler with the mandatory releases from Oneida and Thorn Run, it is still almost as low as I've seen it. I am a little southeast of Butler, and we have missed almost all of the rain.

We have done a lot of macro sampling on the Connie and Thorn, and it is amazing the life in that watershed. I agree - the watershed needs to be watched a little closer than what it is. I like paddling the Connie in my yak, but this year has either been feast or famine for the flow rates.

The only good thing about the low flow rates is that our stream project on Thorn Creek next week should be a little easier to complete.

 

[jjsjigs]

The Susquehanna River Basin Commission on Tuesday announced that 36 separate water withdrawals approved by SRBC are temporarily suspended due to localized stream flow levels dropping at many locations in the Susquehanna basin, especially in northern Pennsylvania.

"Once again, the Commission's stream protection requirements are ahead of the curve and working as intended to protect aquatic resources and downstream water users," said SRBC Executive Director Paul Swartz. "As of early this week, 36 individual water withdrawals in 10 Pennsylvania counties have been temporarily suspended by virtue of the Commission's passby flow restrictions. The vast majority of those suspended withdrawals are related to water for natural gas development."

Under SRBC's passby flow restrictions, when streams drop to pre-determined protected low flow levels, project sponsors who are required to meet the agency's passby requirement must stop taking water. They cannot resume taking water until streams have recovered above the protected level for at least 48 hours.

SRBC and its regulated project sponsors monitor real-time stream flow data generated by stream gages maintained and operated by the U.S. Geological Survey.

Regulated project sponsors also are required to install tamper-proof water meters that automatically record their water withdrawals on a daily basis. SRBC requires that information be reported to it quarterly, in addition to continuous spot-inspections by SRBC field staff working out of the field office in Sayre.

Swartz said, "The Commission does not wait for drought declarations or phone calls from citizens to temporarily halt water withdrawals. Our system is based on science and kicks in well before streams drop to critical low levels. We base our surface and groundwater withdrawal approvals on conservative assumptions regarding hydrologic conditions."

Not all SRBC approvals contain passby restrictions. Those are the withdrawals where the approved withdrawal amounts are so small that they will not affect the protective levels of streams. In those cases, companies can continue to take water during low flow periods.

Here is a list of the affected companies in Bradford County, and their water withdrawal sources that were temporarily suspended as of July 19:

- Chesapeake Appalachia, Chemung River (Barrett) and Sugar Creek (Isbell)

- Healthy Properties, Sugar Creek

- Southwestern Energy Production Company, Wyalusing Creek (Ferguson)

- Talisman Energy, Fall Brook, Seeley Creek, Sugar Creek, Towanda Creek, Tributary to North Branch Sugar Creek, and Wyalusing Creek

- Tennessee Gas Pipeline, Towanda Creek

- Towanda Country Club, Little Wysox Creek

This article was submitted by the Susquehanna River Basin Commission.