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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53 From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13523
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I think jay and mo are spot on. Access is a huge conservation issue.
Posted on: 2009/5/23 23:11
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
 
Joined:
2006/9/9 17:32 From Gettysburg
Posts: 7462
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Placing this thread under Conservation makes perfect sense to me. I wish that I had taken some photos of the waters edge at Espy. While the definitions of HWM in previous posts like Afish's are solid and official, applying them to this particular stretch is a bit difficult. There doesn't appear to be an obvious break in vegetation or a rocky river bed. Rather, the water line along much of this stretch literally extends to the mowed grass. There were places where, as we were walking along the edge, we had one foor in the water and one on the grass. I can't imagine, however, that if you have at least one foot in the water that you're not below the HWM. There were places where the re-bar was just inches from the water's edge. I did notice in some spots obvious flood debris further up on the bank than where the re-bars were placed. Perhaps we were incorrect to interpret the re-bar as SRC's marking of the HWM but that's what it looked like.
Anyway, fair warning from Jay.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 6:52
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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50 Posts: 4827
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Quote:
I would have put it in the General forum, which gets more traffic. I think access is important, and conservation is important. But that they are two different things. There's no harm in putting it here, though. It still got some good discussion.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 8:25
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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50 Posts: 4827
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Quote:
It would be great if someone could post some pictures. I haven't been on that stretch in a long time. From what I remember, it is difficult, because of the vegetation "management" and the man-made alterations to the bank. Flood debris is not an indicator of mean high water mark. In large floods, the entire floodplain is inundated and flood debris is deposited the whole way across the floodplain, from hillslope to hillslope. But that does not mean you have access to that land. You have access within the river channel. Not to the floodplain. The best indicator at a place like Espy's is probably the break in slope from the floodplain into the channel. On some places on some streams, there is an extensive area between the channel boundary (bank) and the actual water's edge. Which is nice for the angler because you can legally walk on dry ground alongside the water. But in other places the water extends right to the channel boundary (bank). In which case the angler has to stay in the water to be legal.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 9:09
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26 From Chester County
Posts: 7635
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Troutbert,
I fished and waded along Espy's last week, and was with Jay and a few others when the confrontation occurred. When you described in an earlier post the vertical break from the stream channel to the edge of the floodplain a light went on. There is a definite change of slope maybe a 45* angle +/- that's grassy and 3-4' in width leading up to the area that flattens out into the floodplain / private property. The high water mark became clear to me after I read your explanation. Now if we can only get the PFBC & law enforcement to read your post, we would be in business. Bottom line the guy (called "Centerpinner" by the Beaver guys) was below the high water mark even though his feet were on dry ground......IMO.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 9:48
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 19:16 From Dallastown, PA
Posts: 6269
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Quote:
I haven't been on that stretch in a long time. From what I remember, it is difficult, because of the vegetation "management" and the man-made alterations to the bank. Anyway, there is a term called "bank full" that indicated where the stream volume extends to during an approximate 1-2 year flood event. You know your basic gully washer. I would wager this to be your high water mark. The term is used extensively in the Natural Stream Channel Design circles, (not to derail the thread). But my understanding is that of Afish's explanation where if the stream is entrenched meaning there is a slope to the flood plain on the point bar edge (inside of a bend) no matter how gradual the bend is, then the Bank Full mark is typically about 50-80% up the bank depending on the lay of the land. There are all sorts of indicators like wetland plants, pebble size distribution, etc that definitively indicate the Bank full elevation. My point is, The waters edge on a point bar is BY NO MEANS the high water mark in any stretch of the imagination. The position of those signs and the "enforcement" of them is bullying. So I agree with Afish, walk about 2/3 of the way up the slope to the flood plain and you will be at the high water mark.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 10:40
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_________________
Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok? |
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Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50 Posts: 4827
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Quote:
From your description, I agree that he was within the channel and therefore legal.
Posted on: 2009/5/24 13:05
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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55 From Bozeman
Posts: 19932
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Let me know if that's visible. He's actually standing in the same position in that picture.
Attach file:  jayLs pic.jpg (347.95 KB)
Posted on: 2009/5/25 1:11
Edited by Maurice on 2009/5/25 9:20:44
Edited by Maurice on 2009/5/25 9:39:10 |
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26 From Chester County
Posts: 7635
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I found this video on determining the bankfull stage (high water mark) on eastern streams. It's 45 minutes long, very interesting if you have the time. The video is a just a more detailed explanation of what Troutbert posted.
http://www.stream.fs.fed.us/publications/bankfull_east.html Here is a FAQ's on the legal OWNERSHIP (not easement) by all citizens of the rivers and streams deemed navigable. http://www.adventuresports.com/river/nors/us-law-rights.htm
Posted on: 2009/5/25 6:45
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Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50 Posts: 4827
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Quote:
Jay, I clicked the link but couldn't view the photo. I got a "Forbidden' message.
Posted on: 2009/5/25 7:34
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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2006/9/11 13:33 From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 2933
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Just so you guys know - the Beav has driven rebar stakes in to mark his turf before, and the judge made him remove them as they were not on his property. Sounds like he's up to his old tricks again.
FWIW - his neighbors really dislike him. The guy that owns the house that borders the downstream side of the junction of the J and Spruce Creek told me he plans on putting a walkway (complete with a sign welcoming fishermen) from the road, down to the river so the fishermen can access the Espy water without being harassed by the Great Conservationist. Even if he hasn't done so yet, you could always knock on his door and ask permission to walk across his lawn. Beats getting hassled. If you think you've been treated unfairly there, go talk to Alan at Spruce Creek Outfitters and tell him about it. He'll know exactly what to do about it.
Posted on: 2009/5/25 12:15
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29 From Monessen, PA
Posts: 19602
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I brightened Jay's pic and focused on the non-wading angler, then drew my interpretation of the likely high water mark. looks like he may be on private property to me.
Attach file: EspyHWM.jpg (83.51 KB)
Posted on: 2009/5/25 12:25
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_________________
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26 From Chester County
Posts: 7635
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Ed,
I don't know if it's the same landowner you're talking about, but the house across the street from the shop allows anglers to walk on his sidewalk through the corner of his yard onto the River. Allan tells fishermen that stop into the shop that it's okay. Just FYI.
Posted on: 2009/5/25 12:28
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Re: High water mark? |
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Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26 From Chester County
Posts: 7635
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No Jack, more like this:
Attach file: Espy HWM.jpg (38.97 KB)
Posted on: 2009/5/25 12:40
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Re: High water mark? |
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Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55 From Bozeman
Posts: 19932
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Quote:
My interpretation as well. When coupled with the rebar signs higher up on the bank, it was very reasonable to assume that he was perfectly legal in standing there. I interpret the above comments as supporting that assumption.
Posted on: 2009/5/25 13:00
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