Fracking Issues 101

[greenghost]

Cool, slick site. Great for an overview about the fracking process and its potential environmental issues.

http://www.dangersoffracking.com/

 

[DanW]

Sorry, when I got to the part that claimed uranium is used in the fracking fluid, I figured I had already wasted too much time on the site.

 

[tomgamber]

DanW wrote:
Sorry, when I got to the part that claimed uranium is used in the fracking fluid, I figured I had already wasted too much time on the site.

can you show me the document that show the ingredients that exclude uranium? I worked for a lab that tested fracking area water sources and uranium was one of the things they tested for.

 

[pcray1231]

The uranium isn't added, but some of it comes up from underground in the flowback, and then the water gets re-used. Most of the truly bad stuff is of the same nature. Natural substance, not intentionally added to frack water, but due to depth and re-use, frack water has a significantly increased concentration of it.

 

[BeastBrown]

pcray1231 wrote:
The uranium isn't added, but some of it comes up from underground in the flowback, and then the water gets re-used. Most of the truly bad stuff is of the same nature. Natural substance, not intentionally added to frack water, but due to depth and re-use, frack water has a significantly increased concentration of it.

Don't they map radioactive zones in the process of drilling to target the Marcellus layer? Funny that fracing is nuclear in a sense. I remember some local municipalities saying that they would not be using flow back water for dust control because of said radioactivity.

 

[Gudgeonville]

Creative and imaginative website that can be used to scare children and folks that are ignorant of the facts. Simplistic use of certain facts interspersed with overused half truths. I would expect nothing less from a disciple of Josh Fox.

 

[Maurice]

Gudgeonville wrote:
Creative and imaginative website that can be used to scare children and folks that are ignorant of the facts. Simplistic use of certain facts interspersed with overused half truths. I would expect nothing less from a disciple of Josh Fox.

Share with us the half truths...and why they are half truths. Just seemed to be a reporting of statistics. (except for the radium/uranium "use") but never the less is a by product that needs to be dealt with.

I found the evaporation pits nugget to be interesting. Evaporation of concentrated VOC's into the atmosphere. Is this one of the half truths?

 

[osprey]

Gudge............What do you have against Josh Fox? Do you know him? Or is it the fact that he made a movie that portrays what you do for a living in a bad light. I worked as a Steelworker , as luck would have it we usually get portrayed in film as some kind of heroes , it's a lie , the truth hurts , steelmaking is an ugly filthy polluting process that did more damage than this fracking does , but , THE TRUTH HURTS. lETS NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES , LET'S TAKE OUR TIME AND DO IT SAFE!!!!

 

[DanW]

As pcray said, the uranium is already in the ground. The fracking procedure just mobolizes it. See-
Uranium in Groundwater? 'Fracking' Mobilizes Uranium in Marcellus Shale

An excerpt-

University at Buffalo researchers have now found that that process -- called hydraulic fracturing or "fracking"-- also causes uranium that is naturally trapped inside Marcellus shale to be released, raising additional environmental concerns.

Just one example of the misinformation on the dangersoffracking site.

For a list of the chemicals used in fracturing, see-
List of 78 Chemicals Used in Hydraulic Fracturing Fluid in Pennsylvania
Note, this is a list of all chemicals that may be used. It doesn't necessarily mean all of these are used each time a well is fracked.

As osprey said, let's take our time and do it safe. But misinformation hinders that process more than it helps.

 

[Maurice]

Hmmmm.....so they put the fluid in the ground and bring it back and it has uranium and radon in it. Then it goes into the pond so it can evaporate into the atmosphere. So thats OK because they didn't Add the chemicals like the website says. Its still there...they "mined" it up and released it. I'd say it a whole truth.

 

[David]

agree with Mo on this one... So Dan and G'ville, you are ok if they take that frack water and run it through your sink?
Really... you don't care if Uranium is in there just because it wasn't "put in" by the fracking company? Sounds like company line semantics to me. You should get a raise!

 

[Gudgeonville]

Sorry, I don't get back to the site as quickly as I want sometimes.

Half truths or incorrect statements,
1.) Hydraulic fracturing is not a drilling process. It is a completion process performed after the drilling of the well is finished.

2.) "Shale rocks"(?) or shale, as it is commonly known, is already fractured naturally, hydraulic fracturing opens or spreads the fractures microscopically to allow more gas to flow into the well bore.

Not sure of the numbers but 400 trucks could be correct, but diesel fuel is used on a lot of different types of sites. why demonize this industry?
1-8 million gallons of water per well, 1 time. Not every fracture.

3.) 40,000 gallons chemicals(?) in 4 million gallons of water! That means that the frac fluid is 99.99% water!

4.)There are probably 6 or 7 chemicals used in fracing most of the time, all reported to the state, and all found in common household items. Carcinogenic or toxic? Maybe, but it is not getting into your water supply so you are not drinking it!

5.) The math is wrong, wells are not fraced 18 times, only once.

6.)Contamination; During this process, methane gas and toxic chemicals leach out from the system and contaminate nearby groundwater. Methane concentrations are 17x higher in drinking-water wells near fracturing sites than in normal wells. I copied and pasted this! Lies and bad science. No fracing procedure has leached out and contaminated groundwater!

7.)Contaminated well water is used for drinking water for nearby cities and towns. There have been over 1,000 documented cases of water contamination next to areas of gas drilling as well as cases of sensory, respiratory, and neurological damage due to ingested contaminated water.
Never has this ever been proven. Here say and out right lies. There are no health effects tied to drinking water near drilling activity.

8.) Only 30-50% of the fracturing fluid is recovered, the rest of the toxic fluid is left in the ground and is not biodegradable. This not true, the water is held tightly in place and returns over time during production of gas.


9.) The waste fluid is left in open air pits to evaporate, releasing harmful VOC’s (volatile organic compounds) into the atmosphere, creating contaminated air, acid rain, and ground level ozone. Wrong again, the water is diluted with fresh water and held in impoundments to be recycled. This area is to humid to wait for evaporation to occur.


10.) Drilling and producing natural gas is a safe operation, we have been drilling for oil and gas in PA for over 150 years.

Gotta run but will be back later.

Maurice wrote:

Gudgeonville wrote:
Creative and imaginative website that can be used to scare children and folks that are ignorant of the facts. Simplistic use of certain facts interspersed with overused half truths. I would expect nothing less from a disciple of Josh Fox.

Share with us the half truths...and why they are half truths. Just seemed to be a reporting of statistics. (except for the radium/uranium "use") but never the less is a by product that needs to be dealt with.

I found the evaporation pits nugget to be interesting. Evaporation of concentrated VOC's into the atmosphere. Is this one of the half truths?

 

[DanW]

David wrote:
agree with Mo on this one... So Dan and G'ville, you are ok if they take that frack water and run it through your sink?
Really... you don't care if Uranium is in there just because it wasn't "put in" by the fracking company? Sounds like company line semantics to me. You should get a raise!

Where did you get the idea that waste fracking fluid will run through my sink? Let me guess, from the same site that claimed the drillers put uranium into the fracking fluid? Perhaps you should consider that if a site is lying to you on one fact, you should be skeptical of the other "facts" from that source. Since uranium is coming back up from these wells after fracking, that tells me that the waste fracking fluid MUST be captured and properly/safely disposed. If a driller is just dumping the fluid then they are breaking the law, should be severely punished and never allowed to drill in PA again.

As to me getting a raise, I work IT and not for any oil or gas company. I'm just trying to clear up some of the misinformation. The truth is just a Google search away for those interested in doing research with an open mind. But it seems many prefer to believe the FUD.

 

[DanW]

Gudgeonville wrote:

Not sure of the numbers but 400 trucks could be correct, but diesel fuel is used on a lot of different types of sites. why demonize this industry?

I think the problem was this report-
List of 78 Chemicals Used in Hydraulic Fracturing Fluid in Pennsylvania

An earlier version of the list, provided by DEP to the Associated Press and published in newspapers throughout the state this week, purportedly included all of the chemicals used in Pennsylvania during the gas extraction process called hydraulic fracturing. Instead, it included not just the chemicals pumped deep underground but also those stored or used on a well site, including fuel for vehicles and brake fluid.

“You can blame it on me,” Scott Perry, the director of DEP’s Bureau of Oil and Gas Management, said on Wednesday.

The original list was a compilation of the chemicals identified on safety documents called material safety data sheets that hydraulic fracturing contractors must submit to the department, but he did not realize that it included substances the contractors use both above and below ground on a well site, he said. The second list was winnowed by a DEP chemist, who recognized that some of the chemicals on the initial list are not among those injected underground during the fracturing process.

Thus it was broadly reported to and by the press that products like diesel fuel and brake fluid are being pumped underground in fracking fluids. Too bad the retraction didn't receive as much attention...

 

[David]

DanW wrote:
[Where did you get the idea that waste fracking fluid will run through my sink? Let me guess, from the same site that claimed the drillers put uranium into the fracking fluid? Perhaps you should consider that if a site is lying to you on one fact, you should be skeptical of the other "facts" from that source. Since uranium is coming back up from these wells after fracking, that tells me that the waste fracking fluid MUST be captured and properly/safely disposed. If a driller is just dumping the fluid then they are breaking the law, should be severely punished and never allowed to drill in PA again.

As to me getting a raise, I work IT and not for any oil or gas company. I'm just trying to clear up some of the misinformation. The truth is just a Google search away for those interested in doing research with an open mind. But it seems many prefer to believe the FUD.

I didn't mean to imply the idea that it would run through your sink... I never even thought it. I was using that as a litmus test for your assertion that fracking is OK because the uranium wasn't placed into the fracking water... but in when pushed, you admit it could there when they take it out. (G'ville talks about half truths...)
I don't care how it gets there, it is still a bi-product of the fracking process.

 

[Missy]

Here's more actual science from the US Geologic Service involving radioactive radium related to data available re: hydrofracking (in addition to the uranium problem):
"As a radioactive element, radium
may represent a potential health hazard if released into the
environment. The half-lives of the two principal isotopes of
radium, Ra-226 and Ra-228, are 1,600 and 5.75 years, respectively
(Akovali, 1996; Artna-Cohen, 1997), and approximately
10 half-lives are required for a radioactive element to decay to
negligible quantities. Chemically, radium behaves in a manner
similar to calcium and is capable of bioaccumulation in plants
and animals. There is a significant body of research aimed at
quantification of radium uptake in crops and livestock that
make up the human food chain."

Radium is released by the process of hydrofracking.

"The term “produced water” in this report represents water produced from an oil or gas well at any point during its life cycle. The term, therefore, includes
waters produced immediately after hydraulic fracturing, with compositions close to those of the injected fluid, as well as waters produced after months or years
of production, whose compositions resemble formation water."

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2011/5135/pdf/sir2011-5135.pdf

AND

"Radioactive waste expert Dr. Marvin Resnikoff", argues "that Marcellus Shale drill cuttings are unusually radioactive, owing to a high concentration of Radium-226, a decay product of Uranium-238 which is known to occur in high concentrations in shale formations that originate in briny conditions of ancient evaporative sea water; that Ra-226 (unlike U-238) is soluble in water; and that, as a result, brine and cuttings returned to the surface during well development concentrate Ra-226 by separating the radium from the uranium remaining in the formation. Ra-226 in the formation is about 25 times more radioactive than background radioactivity in the surface environment and the water surrounding wet drill cuttings as they come up from a wellbore can be as high 1,000 times background. Dr. Resnikoff had been working for over ten years in the Barnett Shale gas fields in Texas, which is a similarly briny shale formation."

http://www.garyabraham.com/ChemungLF.html

Info on Dr. Marvin Resnikoff: http://www.rwma.com/mr.htm

 

[Gudgeonville]

Soil, rock, marble, bricks, granite (counter-tops, etc), sun, are all naturally occurring radiation that you have contact with every day. That's not even counting the radiation that we allow ourselves and our children to be exposed to through medical and dental x-rays. Not to mention the naturally occurring radon gas that comes to the surface with no help from us humans.
There is little to any chance that you would be anywhere near affected by the small amounts of radioactive materials that are disposed of correctly and without incident from drilling for gas and oil. This wasn't a problem during the drilling boom of the 70's and 80's and its not a problem now. In fact, due to the high profile of Marcellus drilling, it is being handled much better than it was in the 70's and 80's.

Missy wrote:
Here's more actual science from the US Geologic Service involving radioactive radium related to data available re: hydrofracking (in addition to the uranium problem):
"As a radioactive element, radium
may represent a potential health hazard if released into the
environment. The half-lives of the two principal isotopes of
radium, Ra-226 and Ra-228, are 1,600 and 5.75 years, respectively
(Akovali, 1996; Artna-Cohen, 1997), and approximately
10 half-lives are required for a radioactive element to decay to
negligible quantities. Chemically, radium behaves in a manner
similar to calcium and is capable of bioaccumulation in plants
and animals. There is a significant body of research aimed at
quantification of radium uptake in crops and livestock that
make up the human food chain."

Radium is released by the process of hydrofracking.

"The term “produced water” in this report represents water produced from an oil or gas well at any point during its life cycle. The term, therefore, includes
waters produced immediately after hydraulic fracturing, with compositions close to those of the injected fluid, as well as waters produced after months or years
of production, whose compositions resemble formation water."

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2011/5135/pdf/sir2011-5135.pdf

AND

"Radioactive waste expert Dr. Marvin Resnikoff", argues "that Marcellus Shale drill cuttings are unusually radioactive, owing to a high concentration of Radium-226, a decay product of Uranium-238 which is known to occur in high concentrations in shale formations that originate in briny conditions of ancient evaporative sea water; that Ra-226 (unlike U-238) is soluble in water; and that, as a result, brine and cuttings returned to the surface during well development concentrate Ra-226 by separating the radium from the uranium remaining in the formation. Ra-226 in the formation is about 25 times more radioactive than background radioactivity in the surface environment and the water surrounding wet drill cuttings as they come up from a wellbore can be as high 1,000 times background. Dr. Resnikoff had been working for over ten years in the Barnett Shale gas fields in Texas, which is a similarly briny shale formation."

http://www.garyabraham.com/ChemungLF.html

Info on Dr. Marvin Resnikoff: http://www.rwma.com/mr.htm

 

[pcray1231]

As it comes to radiation, it's something I know a little about. Is some brought up with frack water? Yes, of course it is. Is this a problem? Depends on the concentration. From what I've seen, no. But it's important to test for to keep tabs on that concentration.

The concentrations have been considerably less than, for instance, fly ash produced by coal power plants. Which, by the way, is produced in far greater volumes than frack water.

The question isn't whether it's 100% safe for everyone. Nothing is. The correct question is whether it's better than the alternative. Which, right now, is still coal and oil. Both of which produce more radiation worries than gas.

And gudgeon is correct, we've been drilling for gas in PA for 150 years. Fracking for the majority of that time. Because of the depth and volume, Marcellus adds some dangers. Radiation isn't one of them. It's no worse than traditional drilling. And if it were a problem, the worst stuff wouldn't be re-used frack fluid. It'd be tailings and drilling mud.

 

[pcray1231]

From a USGS report regarding fly ash. Other rock types are listed. Any drilling or extraction of any type (ore mining, coal mining, oil and gas drilling, water well drilling, etc.) will bring up various types of rock from underground. All of which are radioactive (as is our surface soil), but some of which are more radioactive than others.

Various processing can enrich the remaining materials with radioactive elements. For instance, fly ash is enriched with radioactive elements in comparison with the coal it originated from, as the volatiles burn off and leave the heavier elements behind in the ash. We use fly ash in cement!

Drilling fluids and tailings should not be "enriched" by processing, per se. But it is possible/likely that it goes through a formation which is naturally enriched, and brings it to the surface, which would make it enriched in comparison with many surfaces. We're still talking concentrations which are naturally occurring. It's rock. Phosphate rocks are the highest in this graph, higher than tailings and fly ash would be, and are used in things like fertilizer for your plants, animal feed, water treatment, cosmetics, and food preservatives, and include limestone (though I'm not sure of the radioactivity of various limestone formations).

It's something to keep tabs on, but not get outraged about. The public's fear of radioactivity is ridiculous. I'm naturally radioactive. You are too!

 

[melvinp]

Wouldn't their be a higher amount or equal amount of radioactive materal in the grindings left over from the drilling,Yea its been in the ground for ever but now it in a train in meshoppen.Car after car after car.Hope nothing happens to that train.