Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 2 (3) 4 »


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4376
Offline
great links david, thanks! I especially like the companies that have violations and haven't even drilled a well yet!! yeah, I want those guys messing with my water supply!!LOL!

Posted on: 2010/11/24 6:42


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/1/21 19:15
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 2627
Online
I understand. Off the top of my head, I believe that EOG Resources was fined between $350,000 to $400,000 for the 35,000 gallon spill in Black Moshannon this past spring. Is that an acceptable fine to hold the company responsible for the accident (considering that they had hours to call for help and no one did)? I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not the frac chemicals entered the water-most reports say that the chemicals did not, but I don't know.

It's a difficult question for me to answer. Corporations are profit driven but I think when dealing with such powerhouses as EOG (affilitated with Enron!), one cannot rely on corporate responsibility. The industry seems to believe it is "entitled" to what it takes. I don't honestly think the fine will push them towards responsible behavior, ultimately. In my experience, companies put aside "fine" money and consider it a part of doing business. If you want to make them responsible you have to hand out fines that seem absurdly large. Then, and only then, would you have a "chance" of getting their attention. And you need to tax them to protect the taxpayer for all the clean up and repair that will need to be done-in the case of wells located on state park/forest land, you need to put that revenue in a fund that will earn interest and be completely devoted to fixing Rendell's idea of prostituting our forests in the first place.

-Missy (Dave's Wife)

Posted on: 2010/11/24 16:48


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/1/21 19:15
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 2627
Online
Even with the number of violations and with what seems to be a questionable outcome, I truly believe that the more we know, the better off we are in the long run. So don't get discouraged. If enough people are educated about the realities of Marcellus and as more accidents occur (awful!), the more we could move away from drilling.

And then there's the Frac Act sponsored by Casey.

I started researching all of this after learning about the Black Moshannon spill. Before that I had a vague idea that this could be a problematic situation, but had no idea of exactly the scope of it. I had no idea that our state had opened our land to permit it. Before Moshannon, I kept hearing about all the jobs coming to Pittsburgh and how much money people were going to make.

One of my friends just said the other day how much money her realtor friend who works in Washington, PA was making off the guys coming in from OK and TX to drill down there. She said that she thinks Marcellus is a great thing, that it needs to be done, and that she's actually glad they're drilling in rural areas vs the city. There was some crap too about the U.S. needing the energy, but that's a post for a different day. I said, of course, that they should drill in the city vs in our rural areas. After all, it's already polluted.

Dimock is not near Scranton. Well, it's about an hour north west of it. It's much closer to Susquehanna.

Hang in there!

- Missy

Posted on: 2010/11/24 17:22


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
Posts: 4460
Offline
David/Missy.............OH NO , when was there a spill on Black Moshannon? Is that the one i was asking about my friend heard on the News about 2 weeks ago? My fishing buddy from Mineral Point took me to Black Moshannon creek starting about three years ago on the Special Regs section , we've been making that a spring trip once or twice a year for 3 years , it's nice it's fairly close and there are lots of trout. What Happened there? My buddy is going to be angry about that. He works for Gamesa in Ebensburg and is an avid fly fisher and a TU member for decades.

Posted on: 2010/11/25 8:31


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2158
Offline
Dear Board,

I have an idea, since the great legislature of this State thinks it's unfair to expect the drilling companies to pay an extraction tax why not go after the folk's who have profited so far from the process, the lessor's?

They sold the rights to drill on their land but they did not sell the rights to access that land using public roads and bridges because it is not their's to sell. Ecrow money from them to pay for the damages and you will have an extraction tax enacted in 24 hours or less!

It's a joke that this State is only one the Nation without an extraction tax and the common citizen's will be left holding the bag without one.

Don't tell me that a tax would make it difficult for the poor gas companies to make ends meet. These drill rigs and crews cost $ 1,000,000.00's to mobilize from Texas, and Wyoming, and West Virginia and where ever else they originated and this is going on when natural gas is as cheap as it has been for years? They are collecting gas as the value of it drops and they are still making piles of money.

So let's do the right thing and tax the folks who leased their land and everything will be corrected quickly, and in such as manner that everyone benefits.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2010/11/25 9:06
_________________
"Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel, and they tortured the timber and stripped all the land. Well they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken, then they wrote it all down as the progress of man."


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4376
Offline
Dear Tim,(couldn't resist!) I have given thought to something along those lines, I think if someone leases thier land for drilling, they should be held partly responible for their neighbors water supply and such. might make some people think before signing on the dotted line. how fair is it if someone leases their farm to drilling, then a dozen of their neighbors get contaminated wells from it, they lose their drinking water while the land owner gets rich. there should be some accountability there. I'm not one for the government telling us what we can do with our land, but when it comes to doing something that could harm our neighbors, that's a different story. I'm not saying every well drilled would result in problems, but accidents have been happening. maybe there are already rules in place regarding this, but I haven't heard of any.
the same rules would apply to the state for leasing state lands. they should be held responsible for any neighboring lands that could get contaminate.
best wishes,
Alan

Posted on: 2010/11/25 9:25


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2158
Offline
Dear Alan,

We seem to be viewing this similarly.

I'm not telling anyone they can't lease their land and mineral rights but if the lessors and the drilling companies make their money utilizing infrastructure which everyone has paid for why should the damages be paid for by everyone collectively?

If your use and benefit from something which is paid for collectively by the general public is disproportiate to the money you expended in payment initially you should have to pay more to equalize things.

If a dairy farmer hasa manure pit that leaks and damages the property of other neighbors either that farmer or his insurance company ultimately compensates those who suffered damages.

The way things are at this point with drilling unless more money is expended by the government and individuals who have been wronged in the form of court actions only the general public is paying for damages, and that is simply and utterly wrong.

If you use it you pay for it, it really is that simple. That concept works for everything else, why not here in this case?

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2010/11/25 9:41
_________________
"Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel, and they tortured the timber and stripped all the land. Well they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken, then they wrote it all down as the progress of man."


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2009/10/15 13:45
From Eastern PA
Posts: 10220
Offline
Quote:
Off the top of my head, I believe that EOG Resources was fined between $350,000 to $400,000 for the 35,000 gallon spill in Black Moshannon this past spring. Is that an acceptable fine to hold the company responsible for the accident (considering that they had hours to call for help and no one did)?


That is less than one months production for a single well, so no I don't think it is overly stressing to the companies.

Quote:
If a dairy farmer hasa manure pit that leaks and damages the property of other neighbors either that farmer or his insurance company ultimately compensates those who suffered damages.


Only if a duty to protect is breached. Environmental damages as a result of pollution are specifically excluded from the Homeowners and Farmowners policy forms. Most commercial package policies exclude it as well. If a property owner was found liable for damages they could pay the damages or they could simply dismiss the judgment in bankruptcy. Besides, the oil companies have much deeper pockets than the land owners and are more easily villified (rightly or wrongly) in courts.

There WILL be a severance tax placed on the drilling companies but not for the right reasons. The major beneficiary of this tax will the the states general fund. That is the only reason a severance tax will be put in place. I do for some dumb reason believe there will be decent amount of allocation to pro environmental concerns.

Posted on: 2010/11/25 11:20


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2158
Offline
Dear jdaddy,

I will take you at your word that what you said is true which begs the question, what is insurance other than a giant scam?

I'm not questioning what you said, I'm just wondering how that all came to be? People are required to have insurance and it appears based on what you say that the insurance companies are only required to collect premiums and everything else ultimately comes about primarily because of court actions? Even when that happens the offenders are allowed to walk away under the veil of bankruptcy.

Is the deck really that poorly shuffled? I'd like to hope that isn't the case but you seem to know what you are talking about so I suspect it actually is that way.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2010/11/25 13:00
_________________
"Then the coal company came with the world's largest shovel, and they tortured the timber and stripped all the land. Well they dug for their coal till the land was forsaken, then they wrote it all down as the progress of man."


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/6/28 15:57
Posts: 713
Offline
I think it would be a good idea to get ahead of the curve with these fracking projects. Some of them are going to be done. Probably many of them.

Things that conservation-minded individuals and groups can do of their own accord, without a great deal of expense (although it will take some time and effort):

1) Do a 'triage' assessment- prioritize which watersheds [including streams, springs, wells, and aquifer basins] are the most highly valued, healthy, ecologically diverse, unique, extensive, and vulnerable. That's always going to be something of a judgment call- but some cases are bound to be more obvious than others.

You guys are the Pa. native trout fishers- and that makes you expert informants on the ground on that subject. There's no need to commission some research project that delivers it's findings after what's done is done.

First you map it out. Then you rank the watersheds, in order of the ones that most require protection. Not easy, but this is triage.

2) Obtain a map of all of the planned/possible drilling sites.

3) Then you overlay those maps, and figure out which locations need the most protection.

Then you have a clear idea of what most needs to be defended.

4) Learn the important basic facts about fracking chemicals and procedures- in order to figure out what constitutes a minor spill, and what constitutes a major spill. You want some sound science-based perspective, so you don't fly off the handle over every last thing.

An example: this spill being discussed is 13,000 gallons- equivalent to the size of a 24 ft. round pool with a depth of 52 inches.

http://www.backyardcitypools.com/swim ... Pool-Volume-Calculate.htm

Big question: how bad is a 13,000 gallon spill, really?

Speaking for myself- I don't know.

I'm still in the very beginning stages of learning about all of this, so I don't have the answers to most of my questions- but this is the next thing I want to ask:

How much of that 13,000 gallons is water, and how much is other stuff- salt, petroleum distillates, detergents, etc.?

Then you want to run a rough comparison of the effects of that spill, versus the amounts contributed to the well/aquifer/watershed by the sort of non-point source runoff that we've come to accept as part of the modern world. Things like the grease and oil of vehicles washing off of pavement into streams, or road salt. It's important to figure out how much of an added burden is being imposed on the watershed.

5) Then you want to figure out the array of possible consequences from a "no-problem" spill; a minor spill, that would cause negative cumulative effects if repeated in the same place; the levels of major spill that could lead to ever more serious consequences like aquatic insect dieoffs or fishkills; and finally, what a catastrophe would look like. Including one from cumulative insults and traumas.

In order to do that, you need to involve environmental scientists. It might even be possible to get some of those people to do studies and risk assessments pro bono (i.e., without getting paid.) Documented findings and estimates are important.

6) Then you need to get the local environmental scientists/watershed keepers (and that's you, some of you) and petro geologists, hydrologists, and engineers to talk to each other. How well this dialogue would go, I can't say. But I think it's important to try. I don't think it should be necessary to make it about government hearings- at least at first. More like a meeting of the minds (with minutes taken), and informal community Q&A sessions. Try for reasonable cooperation, first. If you don't get it, document that.

7) I think one goal should be to allow monitoring of the drilling operations by trained local volunteer teams. If the gas companies are above-board and honest, I think they ought to find a way to permit that sort of oversight. But the volunteers need to be trained so that they know what they're looking at. (And, sad to say, it's probably important to have a check on them by rotating the teams, to prevent the possibility of bribery.)

Posted on: 2010/11/26 12:12


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/6/28 15:57
Posts: 713
Offline
I think it's important not to be hostile about the very idea of any fracking taking place. It's a technology that can be used without ripping and running. I agree that there are some places that should be just plain off-limits. But most of the problems from fracking are from doing it wrong- carelessness, cheaping out, etc.

And the oil/gas industry IS feeling pressure from the public, in the aftermath of the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

So the other thing to do is to not be completely fatalistic that all resistance/oversight/regulation is futile.

But we need to make sure not to waste our efforts early on, by crying wolf.

Beyond the pollution threat, another problem has to do with water withdrawals. I think that it should be a high priority to learn what the industry plans to do in order to minimize the adverse consequences.

For instance, it should be fairly obvious that it's much less of a problem to take water from a stream during the high water conditions of springtime than it is at any other time of the year. Also, for some of the sites in NW Pa., pretty much the only thing that prevents the industry from using a source like Lake Erie instead is the added expense.

I don't think that the oil/gas company engineers are evil. But they do tend to have different priorities, and they're bound to have gaps in their knowledge base. They're more attuned to thinking of the earth as a bank vault instead of a source of life. So they may need some education. In terms of environmental consequences, what works with no big problem in Wyoming often doesn't work in Pennsylvania. If they don't get that, they need to.

I'm fine with the idea that the industry ought to get as much gas out of the Marcellus shale as possible- as long as they don't cause long-term damage or collapse of ecosystems in their wake.

But that's a big if. Because I do think that poisoning wells and watercourses is a crime. A crime as in felony- not a civil offense.

Posted on: 2010/11/26 12:13


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/1/21 19:15
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 2627
Online
Hi Osprey,
I believe it was the accident in Black Moshannon that caused Rendell to put a moratorium on allowing new leases in the PA state lands/parks. Here is a link (there are better articles with more details-I can find them again and attach, if you'd like): http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23793198/detail.html. It is my understanding that hours went by before the crew called for help which was considered seriously negligent and resulted in a fine just under $400,000.00.
Missy

Posted on: 2010/11/26 20:56


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2008/1/21 19:15
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 2627
Online
Hi Barbless,
I appreciate all the time, thought, and effort you put into your recent postings! Just a couple of things... The chemicals in the frac fluid range in toxicity but it contains carcinogens, endocrine disruptors, and chemicals that cause neurological problems, kidney problems, etc. You may want to read the post about "what is in the frac fluid?" for a link to a chemical list. And, I would say, knowing what is in the frac fluid and knowing that I don't know what is in the proprietary ingredients, I would believe that a 15,000 gallon spill of frac fluid is quite serious. It is also important to consider the ramifications of storing the frac waste water in lined reservoirs, open to all sorts of environmental conditions, and the possibility of the waste water entering the ground in this way.

It is this sense of not knowing where the drilling companies priorities lay (or perhaps it's knowing, Chesapeake energy has already sold some of their American mineral rights to a company from China) and accident after accident, violation after violation, and knowing that the gas companies are exempt for the Clean Water Act that causes me concern. My husband's aunt is considering selling her mineral rights to a Marcellus well drilling company. She has a surface gas well and has NO idea the difference between the two. It will be interesting to see what she does...and if she does, what happens after that.

As far as the drilling companies not being evil. Of course, any rational person would agree, but then you read articles like the one below from the Wall Street Journal and to know that Halliburton and Enron are participants in this endeavor can make even the most rational person wonder.

Chesapeake is probably the worst offender.

http://online.wsj.com/article/AP8633e ... ?KEYWORDS=marcellus+shale

As always, my main concern is for our public lands and the fish that live in the streams/rivers within them.

-Missy

Posted on: 2010/11/26 21:57


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 21729
Offline
Quote:

Missy wrote:
As far as the drilling companies not being evil. Of course, any rational person would agree,...


Dang! I thought we were in agreement.

Posted on: 2010/11/26 22:22
_________________
I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: 13,000 Gallon Frack Fluid Spill in Penn Township, Lycoming

Joined:
2009/10/15 13:45
From Eastern PA
Posts: 10220
Offline
Quote:
I will take you at your word that what you said is true which begs the question, what is insurance other than a giant scam?


Absolutely not. I administer the payment of millions and millions of dollars to policy holders every year. The entity simply needs to have the proper protection in the form of an Environmental Policy and/or Pollution Liability Form. Your homeowners policy is rated to protect the average risk faced by home ownership, not provide coverage for multi-million dollar drilling operations in your back yard.

Regarding my statement of discharging judgments via bankruptcy, this probably would not occur in an event such as this, given that homeowners leasing land likely have assets exceeding exemption thresholds, not to mention the gas income from well production.

Having said that, we all know the companies themselves should be held responsible for their actions.

Posted on: 2010/11/26 23:04



« 1 2 (3) 4 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
What kind of streams do you primarily fish?
Approved Trout Waters (Stocked Fish)
Class A Wild Trout Streams
Special Regulation Areas
Wilderness Trout Streams
No Preference All Trout Streams
153 total votes!
The poll will close at 2014/4/30 15:00
4 Comments
USGS Water Levels





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com