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Re: Wild Browns

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2011/3/31 12:18
From Clearfield
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
n area of Big Spring when compared to Rainbow & Brookies. Given the "fact" that Brownies are the most prolific of the 3, especially in alkaline streams - why would that be? Further, almost no where (to my knowledge) is there any stream where all 3 wild trout species are present and rainbows outnumber the other two.


This brings up a good point, and there is no science behind this but, is it possible that the color of the rainbow is making the young rainbows stand out and therefore easier for the other fish to pick off?

Posted on: 2011/9/20 14:20


Re: Wild Browns

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No. I doubt that has much to do with it.

#1. I think PA's streams generally aren't favorable to rainbows.

#2. Like brookies, I think rainbows tend to lose the battle against browns when water is suitable for both. Unlike brookies, they don't have the "acid tolerance" or any other factor over browns to give them a refuge from the brown trout onslaught.

#3. The PFBC strain of rainbow has been tinkered with a lot. Even to the point of breeding at different times of the year. Thus, they are less likely to establish wild populations from stockies. The PFBC fish can't act as a "seed" population, so any new wild rainbow populations have to come from neighboring streams, and there aren't that many of those.

Your point, if applicable, falls within #2. But I think browns are simply more aggressive than rainbows and brookies as far as taking feeding positions, mating, etc. Browns also seem to be more tolerant of warm water temps. And I think they're more wary, meaning they withstand fishing pressure and predation better. Also, browns tend to be fish eaters more than the other two, and fish includes young rainbows and brookies.

Posted on: 2011/9/20 14:50


Re: Wild Browns
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Quote:
afishinado wrote:
n area of Big Spring when compared to Rainbow & Brookies. Given the "fact" that Brownies are the most prolific of the 3, especially in alkaline streams - why would that be? Further, almost no where (to my knowledge) is there any stream where all 3 wild trout species are present and rainbows outnumber the other two.


Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
No. I doubt that has much to do with it.

#1. I think PA's streams generally aren't favorable to rainbows.

#2. Like brookies, I think rainbows tend to lose the battle against browns when water is suitable for both. Unlike brookies, they don't have the "acid tolerance" or any other factor over browns to give them a refuge from the brown trout onslaught.

#3. The PFBC strain of rainbow has been tinkered with a lot. Even to the point of breeding at different times of the year. Thus, they are less likely to establish wild populations from stockies. The PFBC fish can't act as a "seed" population, so any new wild rainbow populations have to come from neighboring streams, and there aren't that many of those.

Your point, if applicable, falls within #2. But I think browns are simply more aggressive than rainbows and brookies as far as taking feeding positions, mating, etc. Browns also seem to be more tolerant of warm water temps. And I think they're more wary, meaning they withstand fishing pressure and predation better. Also, browns tend to be fish eaters more than the other two, and fish includes young rainbows and brookies.



All good points highlighted above. Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.

Posted on: 2011/9/21 6:51


Re: Wild Browns
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.


There's some debate about this. Traditionally, brown trout have done well in BS. Their numbers were never great but they were common and grew to huge sizes (two previous state record browns came from BS in the 1940-60s). During the ditch years from the mid 70s until 2001 there were good numbers of browns in the ditch but since the closure of the hatchery and the rebound of the stream, browns are disappearing. Currently, there is a remnant population of large, very old browns in upper BS but they're slowly disappearing. Recent surveys turn up a handful of YOY browns amongst the thousands of rainbow and brookie fingerlings. The current theory among close observers of BS is that the stream's natural upwellings in shallow, fine gravel areas is unsuitable for brown trout spawning (brookies spawn very well in fine gravel upwellings). My guess is that there will always be a few browns in BS but I don't think they'll ever be there in the numbers that bows and brooks will - probably due to an inability to spawn successfully in the upper creek.

Posted on: 2011/9/21 8:42


Re: Wild Browns

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Good info FI.

Posted on: 2011/9/21 8:52
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Re: Wild Browns

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As FI said, there are likely factors which favor brookies.

Another point:

It may be difficult for browns to completely take over an entrenched population. However, should a weakness in the entrenched population occur, such as some sort of natural or manmade disaster, it may be the opportunity the browns need, and when the stream comes back, it may be mainly browns.

I think there are plenty examples of this happening. I'm not sure on timing, but for instance, Spring Creek and the LJR. Both streams were originally brookies with browns struggling, and then went through some major issues and the trout populations crashed. When they bounced back, they were browns.

Such disasters are more common in freestoners and downstream sections of limestoners, and less likely very near to the source of such streams.

Posted on: 2011/9/21 9:58


Re: Wild Browns
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Quote:

Fishidiot wrote:
Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Getting back to Big Spring, why do rainbows and brookies outnumber or at the very least hold their own vs browns.


There's some debate about this. Traditionally, brown trout have done well in BS. Their numbers were never great but they were common and grew to huge sizes (two previous state record browns came from BS in the 1940-60s). During the ditch years from the mid 70s until 2001 there were good numbers of browns in the ditch but since the closure of the hatchery and the rebound of the stream, browns are disappearing. Currently, there is a remnant population of large, very old browns in upper BS but they're slowly disappearing. Recent surveys turn up a handful of YOY browns amongst the thousands of rainbow and brookie fingerlings. The current theory among close observers of BS is that the stream's natural upwellings in shallow, fine gravel areas is unsuitable for brown trout spawning (brookies spawn very well in fine gravel upwellings). My guess is that there will always be a few browns in BS but I don't think they'll ever be there in the numbers that bows and brooks will - probably due to an inability to spawn successfully in the upper creek.


Great info Dave. BS is unique.

Name another decent sized PA wild trout stream or river where wild brookies and/or rainbows dominate over wild browns.

I can only think of one.

Posted on: 2011/9/22 7:49


Re: Wild Browns

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I find it quit ironic that there are many (including myself) lovers of the eastern brook trout on this site, while there are many anglers in the Rocky Mountain states who treat the brookies out there almost like vermin. The brookies in the Rockies are non-native, have a tendency to overpopulate some streams and have done damage to the native trout particularly the west slope cutthroat trout, out competing the cutthroats in the high mountain areas. Does this sound familiar? The following link it to an article by Paul Scullery dealing with the brookies in Yellowstone. It appears the brookies out west have done damage to the native cuts, much the same as browns have done to the brook trout populations in the east.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aMSi ... ion%20yellowstone&f=false

Salmo

Posted on: 2011/9/22 13:31
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Re: Wild Browns

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Yeah, it sounds familiar. However, I looked at this line and had to chuckle:

Quote:
The brookies in the Rockies........have a tendency to overpopulate some streams


They do that here too. It's just that they are native here, and we consider overly high populations a GOOD thing.

Yeah, they consider the brookies to be vermin. But they love them some rainbows, even on the east slope. Despite the fact that the rainbows have probably taken more native cutthroat water than the brookie has.

Posted on: 2011/9/22 15:53


Re: Wild Browns

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Big difference between here and out west is that without the brookies, bows, and browns the cutts can still survive in most rivers and streams. Here the brookies can't.

Posted on: 2011/9/22 22:20
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Re: Wild Browns

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I fully disagree. Here, without browns, brookies could survive in a LOT of streams. Maybe not all, but the majority.

Posted on: 2011/9/23 9:47


Re: Wild Browns

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Quote:

RowJimmy wrote:
Big difference between here and out west is that without the brookies, bows, and browns the cutts can still survive in most rivers and streams. Here the brookies can't.

Not sure I understand. Can you explain?

Posted on: 2011/9/23 9:48


Re: Wild Browns

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2011/5/9 15:37
From Ohio
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I think he means cutts are more tolerant to poor habitat and such than brookies. So if you take out the other trout the cutts will live fine in the stream, where he's saying here in the east if you take out browns(and in some cases bows) the brookies still might not do well in some streams due to poor habitat or other factors.

Posted on: 2011/9/23 15:18


Re: Wild Browns

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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Brookies do great without the competition, I know some limestone stream that have brookies you wouldn't believe where there are no browns and bows. And there are far more wild brookie streams than brownie streams.
Without brown in the big limestone streams brookies would take over in short order if they are already there, and if they aren't already there if you took some from the headwaters of those streams it would be very quick.

Posted on: 2011/9/25 16:06
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Wild Browns

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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Farmer Dave, it could have been acid disolving the plating that was killing the browns. It's really toxic stuff.

Posted on: 2011/9/25 16:29
_________________
It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.



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