Leaders, whos making them vs just buying tapered?

[DJBerg]

So after listening to Tom rosenburg's orvis podcast yesterday, he was talking about leaders, tippet and the size of flys properly being used. I my self am new to fly fishing, and am totally hooked.

My next three goals are:

Presentation, how to make leaders and proper size tippet to fly ratio for better presentation. And fly tying...

I have just gone n bought leaders and tippet by weight and never put any thought to tippet/end of leader in perspective to fly size...

So I have read hand built leaders deliver flies nicer than store bought leaders.

The species I am going after are: bass, carp(for the challenge), trout of all sizes brook to Steele head, and salmon from the niagra river.

Any help, or thoughts would be greatly apreshiated.

Thanks DJ

 

[dryflyguy]

IMO. tying your own leaders is like tying your own flys.
You're gonna have to spend more money at the get go to do it. But in the long run, it's well worth doing.
If you're serious about fly fishing - do it

 

[pcray1231]

I make my own and I think you'll find many of the experienced guys do. I wouldn't say that hand tied leaders deliver flies BETTER than store bought leaders. Because it's hard to say that, everyone ties different tapers and store bought one's are different tapers too. I think a better way to say it is that hand tied leaders give you more versatility. I'm constantly changing leaders to fit conditions.

From what I've seen, there are generally two schools of thought on this board. Some guys build various leaders using materials like Maxima Chameleon for the stiff butt sections, and knot together the sections. Others make furled (braided) leaders, usually ending in a tippet ring or something similar, then just tippet from there.

 

[midnightangler]

I wouldn't expect any magic results as far as presentation is concerned. That has a lot more to do with casting than it does with your leader formula.

IMHO, you don't need a fancy leader for smallmouth, or for any other fish where you're casting bigger flies. As long as you let you're letting your line straighten out to load the rod you'll be fine. For bass I usually just use 3-4 feet of 20 lb + 3 feet of 1x.

A lot of thought does go into trout leaders, but at the end of the day it comes down to personal preference. If you tie your own leaders for a while, you'll figure out what you like and what you don't. Invariably some people will tell you your leader formulas are wrong, but somehow you'll catch fish anyway...

 

[BelAirSteve]

I tie my own - haven't bought a store bought leader in about 2 years. Just google "leader formula" and you will get a lot of good info, try some of them and document your results, then stick with what works.

"So I have read hand built leaders deliver flies nicer than store bought leaders."

If you found those comments on this board, I am one that has had similar experience. I don't know the physics of casting with knotted leaders vs. one-piece tapered leaders, it just feels better and I would swear that they turn over better.

 

[DJBerg]

I typically fish once a day maybe skipping a day here n there but for now it's pretty ridiculous... Just trying to get asynchronous practice as I can. But I'm looking into a 7-7.5" 4wt for the brush sided streams we have around me, for brooks n browns. And I want to make my 8wt a versatile pole for bigger streams/rivers/ open water. I think the custom leaders will be the most studied there, if ya know what I mean... Ranging 7-12' depending on what I am fishing and the size of the flies... So it looks like I'm off to buy a bunch of line n tippet n just start building n casting. I am luck to have the world of forums and just met a fishing guide for advice and he seems to like to set people up with his flies that he ties to see if the work...

But all n all looks like more research and a lot of trial n error, lucky heavy weight lines come in large spools!

And yeah I definitely need more casting practice. Like I said I just want the best presentation I can have for when the fishing gets good. And leaders are freakin expensive!!

 

[pcray1231]

Theoretically, at least, from a physics perspective, a knotless leader is more efficient at transferring energy.

That said, most of us who tie our own knotted leaders are using very stiff materials, like chameleon, for the butt and part of the taper. And then we use softer materials on the tippet end to get us our drag free drift. Those stiff materials do indeed transfer energy better. And a knotless leader doesn't have the flexibility to use different materials for different sections, and most of them use softer materials throughout.

Hence, I think that's the observed effect of hand tied leaders turning over better. I've observed it too.

 

[BelAirSteve]

pcray,

Your explanation reflects my experiences very well...as always, well stated.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

I have tied my own leaders since I began flyfishing. I tried a tapered extruded storebought leader once and only once. It was horrible. The leaders I build can be modified and adjusted for any condition. IMO handtied leaders are ALOT better.

 

[McSneek]

To the OP - many of the species you're pursuing require the simplest of leaders especially when you are chuckin' and duckin' egg patterns for steelhead and salmon. I tied my own for trout for awhile and then got lazy. Usually start the season with a fresh 7.5' leader tipped out at 4x. Tie on additional 4x or 5x depending on what fly I'm using and/or water clarity. keep replacing this piece of tippet as it gets shorter. If fishing smaller dries in clear water may add some 6x. IMO - some of these guys overcomplicate things with all different lengths and sizes of hand tied leaders but to each his own.

 

[pcray1231]

For me, leaders are very important in fly fishing success. Not as important as things like the where and when. But far more important than having a good rod, or even using the right fly.

It's all about presentation. Getting a fly to exactly where you need it and getting the right drift when you get it there, etc. That's all in the leader.

If you can't get rid of drag (dries or nymphs), there's a leader adjustment for that. If you can't get far enough up under that tree limb, there's a leader adjustment for that. If the fish are a little out of reach, there's a leader adjustment for that. If you keep snapping them off on the hookset, theres a leader adjustment for that. If on nymphs, you think you're missing takes, there's a leader adjustment for that too.

It's hard to understate how important it is. That said, yes, for a beginner, start simple. Learn to be a decent caster first. After you are a reasonably good caster, then start experimenting with leaders.

 

[David]

There was a leader maker who gave away a number of leaders on this site to anyone who asked. I found them to be of high quality, but cannot recall who it was...anyone recall?

 

[David]

There was a leader maker who gave away a number of leaders on this site to anyone who asked. I found them to be of high quality, but cannot recall who it was...anyone recall?

 

[NickR]

^^^
Uhhh... wish I knew who that was but that is awesome!

If you fish a lot it might be tough to keep up with tying your own leaders. Also, I tend to like store bought leaders because they don't have knots and have a smooth taper. The knots in tied leaders tend to disturb glassy water and typically I like store bought knotless leaders for calm spring creeks. Hand tied leaders also hold more water and cause more spray while casting. They can also cause a fair amount of drag.

 

[DJBerg]

Yeah I fish way too much, but that's all in getting my fly experience up. And now that the water temps are coming back down n the fish are going to be more active, I just want to be as prepared as I can be. Ya know. So far the only draw backs are of drag and the knots holding water? Not too bad... Thinking I'm gonna start picking up different monos and try my hand at it. Pretty much gonna work off that link with the leader setups they have there and fine tune the rest as I go... There might be a day when I spend a whole afternoon just casting leaders.... With different size flies...

I want to try to make my 8wt rig as versatile as possible. Cast larger flies on what ever I can make work and smaller flies for trout in bigger streams/rivers on longer leaders for hopefully good presentations with a bigger pole.

I'm plannin on a 4wt rig also but like a 7.5' rod for local small streams. And still thinking maybe going lighter on that rod yet.... I have to go up and play with a friends rod collection and see if I want to go lighter or stay in a safe 4wt...

Those are my thoughts and reasons thus far....

Thanks agian for all the responses. DJ

 

[Heritage-Angler]

NickR wrote:
^^^
Uhhh... wish I knew who that was but that is awesome!

If you fish a lot it might be tough to keep up with tying your own leaders. Also, I tend to like store bought leaders because they don't have knots and have a smooth taper. The knots in tied leaders tend to disturb glassy water and typically I like store bought knotless leaders for calm spring creeks. Hand tied leaders also hold more water and cause more spray while casting. They can also cause a fair amount of drag.

The guy that was tying leaders, and giving them out on this forum went by the forum name of "Maxima".

Nick - I find the rest of your post baffling, for the most part.

Once you get the hang of tying your own leaders, it only takes a couple of minutes to make one. The butt and mid sections tend to last a long time, and since you tied them, you know what each section is, and can rebuild, or modify them easily.

One of the big advantages in tying your own leaders, is that YOU choose the taper, and materials - you don't have to settle for a taper some manufacturer thinks you should have. You can customize the leader for whatever situation you'll be using it for. Just that reason alone means it'll perform better than an extruded knotless leader in almost any situation, by comparison.

If you tie good knots, there's no disturbance, spray, etc when casting. A blood knot is a very thin diameter knot, and I'm really skeptical about the holding more water part - at least what can be discerned with the human eye. Regardless, any water held is pretty much gone after the backcast, and is negligible compared to the amount of water your fly can hold.

As far as drag is concerned, this is where a well designed hand tied leader has it all over an extruded knotless leader - in spades!

George Harvey came up with some leader formulas that excel at reducing drag, compared to a knotless, extruded leader. Frog Hair even tried to copy the performance of Harvey's leaders with a knotless, extruded design (with not so spectacular results).

With the exception of some specialty knotless leaders, you're stuck with a leader that is a "jack of all trades, master of none" design. Once you start modifying it to do what you want, it's not knotless any more. ;-)

 

[NickR]

^^^^

I certainly don't consider myself an expert and it is only my opinion here.. Maybe I was not clear. FOR ME: Buying store bought leaders because I fish A LOT and guide as well is much easier.

I used to only use hand tied leaders and still really like them and will probably start using them again due to money restraints but I cannot keep up with tying leaders on a regular basis. I will probably have to more oftent than not buy store bought leaders. Even though I do use store bought leaders I always make modifications to the tippet so technically my leaders are not knotless.

Regardless if it only takes a couple of minutes to tie each leader it would really eat into my fishing time and a lot of hand tied leaders would get destroyed by people that I am teaching how to fly fish. It's much easier to buy a handful of leaders and go fish than to take the time to tie a bunch is it not?

I understand the knots are very small in diamater but when you strip line or get drag in the leader the KNOTS do distrub smooth glassy water. For beginning fly fisherman and experienced as well especially if not the greatest caster when picking up the line to make a backcast the knots disturb the water... I have seen it with my own eyes.

Knotted leaders also pick up weeds in spring creeks and there is spray on the forward cast as well. The spray from the leader on the forward cast is one of the best ways to spook wary spring creek trout. Yes, on the back cast most of the water disperses but there is still plenty of spray on the forward cast... this is why I try not to false cast over top of wary fish if I can help it. I do fish George Harvey leaders and have found them to be very good. I just like hand tied leaders better for pure convenience and I do believe that knotless store bought leaders are better in many ways for glassy spring creeks. Again, just my humble opinion.

 

[Heritage-Angler]

Understood. Easy is a good thing - our time has to be worth something, no?

It's all good.

 

[pcray1231]

Eat into fishing time? I make like 4 a year. They of course get adjusted and then "fixed" on stream many times. But each leader usually lasts a full season. I toss em out and replace em each winter in preparation for spring. Here's my lineup:

1. A brookie leader. Usually around 5 ft without tippet, maybe 2 ft of butt and a quick taper. Leave the tippet for on stream decisions. Mostly I'm just changing tippet lengths on these, can go anywhere from 5'6" to 7 or 8' total length depending on situation. Usually 4x tippet, sometimes 5x. Doubles as my streamer leader as well, I just use heavier tippet and keep it short.

2. Dry fly leaader. Based off of George Harvey's early formulas, with the butt section stiff material, transferring sharply to soft material in the middle of a more gradual taper. I usually make it about 9-10 ft tapered to 5x off the bat. But this one gets altered and abused. Remove a mid-section to shorten, add a section to lengthen, changing length and size of tippets, etc. It truly can be anywhere from an 8 ft 3x leader to a 12 ft 6 or 7x leader.

3. Jack of all trades leader - based off of the little FFP book that came with my kit, it's basically 1/3 butt starting at 0.022, 1/3 taper, and 1/3 tippet. Turns over great for distance casting or throwing weight. Also droppers can be added and it is used for swinging wets. Not as good on drag as #2 or #4, though.

4. Nymph leader: Usually 6 ft or so of 1x or 2x. Flat. Then another foot or 2 tapering quickly to 3x-5x, with droppers. My go to high stickin rig, also often used for indicator fishin if I'm not throwing big distances. But loaded up with weight, as it often is, it's more of a "lob" cast and you're not going to be pinpoint accurate or throwing it very far.

 

[NickR]

I don't know how you only use four leaders a year PCRAY. Maybe I am just too particular about my leaders and once they get altered too much I just throw them away including the butt section. It is getting expensive for me. I recently started using tippet rings so I only need to tie on tippet materials and can reuse the leaders for longer periods of time without altering the actual taper of the leader.