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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2006/11/10 8:32
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Jake:

Your first sentence above certainly reflects the theme of my post: " So what Mike is saying is he honestly does not know the condition or characteristics of the creek first hand and needed a little input from more than one source." The only modification that I would make to your comment is that I don't know the RECENT condition of the creek.

We had a cool, wet summer last year and some substantial storms associated with a tropical system just a week or so ago. Stream habitat can be degraded in a hurry, especially with all of the erosion and sedimentation problems and potential problems in the Muddy Creek basin. To some extent, even the photo that you took of the "clean gravel bottom" is indicative of the problems that the stream faces. Also note tons of that same material temporarily high and dry along the stream margin in some of your previous photos in this thread. By the way, I want to thank you for including the photos.

Given my experience in the drainage basin, I would bet that the gravel is not as clean as you think. It is clean on the surface, but the interstices are probably filled with sand and the gravel/sand deposits are unconsolidated, meaning that they will move with each storm. Check it out next time you are there. Dig down and see what you find. As I have described it, this would not be good macroinvertebrate habitat or ideal brown trout spawning substrate. Furthermore, this is the material that fills in the pools on many of York County's streams. You'll often find that much of the gravel is not rounded, but has sharp to somewhat sharp edges, meaning that it is a relatively recent deposit, not aged natural stream gravel. Sometimes a big storm clears the material out of the pools and sometimes the deposits just get deeper, eventually creating "flat-water" where a decent hole used to be. This is probably what 1wt was describing in more general terms and is what caught my attention. His catch was immaterial with respect to my comments and his observation of habitat degradation seemed credible, given the potential for the exact degradation he described to occur in Muddy Creek. I wanted to know if this was the general situation on the stream and the additional responses from others indicated that it was not. Case closed.

And in response to another writer's comment, credibility depends upon context in my view. In general, even the least credible anglers that I have met sometimes get it right. I consider anglers' comments based on my personal experiences with the anglers, their responses to my sometimes probing questions about the topic at hand, and the plausibility of what they have said given my education, training, and experience. I have learned some fascinating things when I have given some anglers the benefit of the doubt and their concerns or observations have turned out to be right on!

Mike

Posted on: 2010/10/16 19:06


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2006/9/10 7:44
From Enola, Pa.
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Thanks to Maurice and the reat of the TU people for all the work they've done on this stream, they've done a great job!

Thanks to Maurice I have fished muddy a good many times, and have enjoyed it. I recommend to people to start at the top of the special reg area and fish down to the end( at the Hemlocks) and you will see what a beautiful stream this is, great fishing water and the beauty of this place is hard to believe. Im not able to make the trip anymore, just to far and to hard for me, but if I could I'd be there.

I do recommend fishing with a buddy and parking a car at each end, save you a long walk back to your car!

PaulG

Posted on: 2010/10/17 9:05


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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Quote:

Mike wrote:

Given my experience in the drainage basin, I would bet that the gravel is not as clean as you think. It is clean on the surface, but the interstices are probably filled with sand and the gravel/sand deposits are unconsolidated, meaning that they will move with each storm. Check it out next time you are there. Dig down and see what you find. As I have described it, this would not be good macroinvertebrate habitat or ideal brown trout spawning substrate. Furthermore, this is the material that fills in the pools on many of York County's streams. You'll often find that much of the gravel is not rounded, but has sharp to somewhat sharp edges, meaning that it is a relatively recent deposit, not aged natural stream gravel.

Mike


I'm interested in these substrate topics and they don't get discussed much.

You described unconsolidated substrates here. What would be some examples of streams that have the opposite, i.e. consolidated substrates, and what would that look like?

And is it really the norm for stream substrates to be consolidated and that unconsolidated substrates indicate an abnormal condition? Isn't it true that streams are dynamic systems and that it is normal for substrate to move with every high flow?

When you find a lot of gravel that has sharp edges, rather than rounded, where is that gravel typically coming from, and what does it indicate about the stream system?

In many urban/suburban streams I've seen enormous amounts of gravelly substrate that does not seem to be normal stream gravel, but have been puzzled where it's coming from. But my theory is that it is coming off roads and driveways. Paved roads often have gravel berms along the sides. And they spread gravel on the roads when it snows. And many people have gravel driveways and that washes away, onto the paved streets, then to the storm drains, and from there to the creeks.

BTW, I think asking anglers questions is a good thing for PFBC employees to do, and I'm glad that you take the time to do it. Sometimes you have to seperate the wheat from the chaff, but you can often learn interesting things from people who spend time on the streams.

Posted on: 2010/10/17 9:48


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Quote:

Mike wrote:
And in response to another writer's comment, credibility depends upon context in my view. In general, even the least credible anglers that I have met sometimes get it right. I consider anglers' comments based on my personal experiences with the anglers, their responses to my sometimes probing questions about the topic at hand, and the plausibility of what they have said given my education, training, and experience. I have learned some fascinating things when I have given some anglers the benefit of the doubt and their concerns or observations have turned out to be right on!

Mike


This other writer doesn't disagree with Mike's comments quoted above, but it doesn't explain why he would gratuitously respond to such a post with a suggestion that special regs on this stream should be reconsidered because a single somewhat anonymous poster had a complaint about the most accessible stream section in the area. This is particularly odd given the fact that Mike knows that there are others, Maurice in particular, that not only know the stream like the back of their hand, but have also worked tirelessly and sometimes thanklessly to preserve and enhance the stream and to assure continued access over private lands, whom he could have consulted to get a truer picture of the matter at hand.

Posted on: 2010/10/17 9:51
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
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Well anyway, this could go on forever, the pics are still there, how much cleaner can it actually get. most of the chunky sharp pieces of gravel are quartz by the way, which does not wear into a rounded shape.

Anyway, I'd like to thank Maurice for all the work he's put into this wonderful stream, which has been one of my favorite York Co. Streams to visit.

I always have a good time here and never have to deal with crowds and all the spot mongering associated with some other streams I fish.

Posted on: 2010/10/17 10:12
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2007/6/19 21:49
From Lancaster County
Posts: 1541
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Quartz definitely DOES erode into rounded pebbles; walk along a beach and look for the white pebbles or find some basal conglomerates - most of the time, they are quartz pebble conglomerates.

I was fishing a stream with similar bedrock as Muddy Creek, yesterday, and observed that the two major water events we've had in the past three weeks cleared out a bunch of the silt and mud that was there, leaving a nice, relatively clean, angular substrate. Lot's more places for adult fish to hid again.. Then, I read Mike's post, about things maybe not looking as good as they might appear, in a "clean" gravel. It then got me thinking, in a bigger sense, what kind of bedrock makes for optimal spawning gravel? The past two streams I've fished have had sandstone/quartzite and schist as the bedrock. The former weathers to a fine sand, and the latter to a bunch of angular fragments. Each stream had wild fish in it. Sand, I would think, is less than optimal, as would be an angular schist. But despite, or in spite of, those bedrocks, they still produce fish.

I'd second troutbert's question, and wonder what others would have to say about a stream's substrate, either scientific opinions or fishing opinions, as well as how that may affect the biomass of a stream.

Quote:

JakesLeakyWaders wrote:
Well anyway, this could go on forever, the pics are still there, how much cleaner can it actually get. most of the chunky sharp pieces of gravel are quartz by the way, which does not wear into a rounded shape.

Anyway, I'd like to thank Maurice for all the work he's put into this wonderful stream, which has been one of my favorite York Co. Streams to visit.

I always have a good time here and never have to deal with crowds and all the spot mongering associated with some other streams I fish.

Posted on: 2010/10/17 17:12


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7749
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I'd like to point out that streams are not stagnate systems but dynamic systems that change sometimes with the next major storm. I could be 7 inches of rain or 2 inches of rain, but streams do change over time and what was once a nice pool may become filled with sediment, and what was once a riffle becomes a pool. Now a year later the pool can be dug out again by another storm if the conditions are right.
This is why we do stream bank restorations and tree planting. we want the trees to shade the streams and evenutally to fall in the streams creating new habitat. We want the banks to be stabilized until the trees get large enough to hold the banks together. Much of the sediment in streams comes from the banks along sections that are un-shaded and have no protection or from areas where the stream inundates the flood plain and washes sediment into streams. Without getting into a long explanation of how this works suffice it to say, ALL of our trout streams need attention. Particularly in developed areas.

Posted on: 2010/10/19 21:52
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 581
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Some thoughts on spawning gravel. My sense is that any loose, clean gravel of any shape would be appropriate spawning material provided it is located in a portion of the stream which also has the other beneficial spawning attributes, viz: impinging flow and hydraulic upwelling. The glide at the tail of a pool makes a better spawning area than the riffle at the head or within the depths of the pool proper. This is because, in the glide area, the bottom of the stream is rising and the force of the water is impinging the gravel, that is, pushing against the gravel and holding it down, rather than sweeping it and lifting it up (a condition found in the head of the pool). Eggs laid in the glide are more likely to stay put and, in addition, the impinging flow bathes the eggs in a constant flow of oxygenated water. If the glide is also located in an area of up-welling, where groundwater is forced back up into the stream bed, so much the better, as the eggs will experience the constant and moderated temperature of that groundwater.

Posted on: 2010/10/20 12:42



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