Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 2 (3) 4 »


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2011/6/29 9:38
From Philadelphia
Posts: 2137
Offline
Quote:

JackM wrote:
Quote:

Tups wrote:
When 2 second order streams join, they form a third order stream, and so on.


So, I wonder what you call it when a second order stream merges with a first order stream?


According to Rosenbauer's book, it is still a second order stream.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 18:02


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/13 12:37
Posts: 496
Offline
Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
Part of it depends on WHERE in the state it is.

W and NW of the ridge and valley province, on the plateau, stream length is an excellent indicator of how big it is. Streams all start small and grow at a rather consistent rate.

Excepting limestone regions, "catchment" size is probably the better determiner in the ridge and valley province, such as the pocono's. That can be tricky, though. Unlike plateau regions, which are virtually 100% sloped so it's easy to tell, there's lots of flat area. Fairly large streams sometimes "appear" virtually out of nowhere. They're catchment basins are actually appropriately large, but that's not so apparant from a topo map. That large flat ridge drains into 7 different streams, all of which don't seem to start to form valleys until the ridgeline.

Also, in very rocky terrain, on steeper slopes much of the water flow may actually be underground, in the rocks and rubble, rather than on the surface. Meaning flow is actually much larger than what it apepars when you walk along it. Likewise, small streams can sometimes fish bigger than they are, if they have large pools. I call it the bathtub effect. You can have a trickle or a torrent between "bathtubs", but the size of the bathtub is often what matters.

And in limestone, things are are really weird. Water can sink, flow underground, go underneath one stream and emerge in the next one over! Full fledged rivers can emerge out of nowhere, with seemingly tiny watersheds.


It is just west of Hazleton, PA, I believe it's R and V Province, in the anthracite region.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 18:36


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/13 12:37
Posts: 496
Offline
Quote:

Tups wrote:
Stone Fly: Fair enough. As I said, most of us prefer the term "watershed" over "catchment," or at least we are more familiar with watershed. In any case, I just wanted to make sure that the readers understood I was talking about "area" (sq. miles) as opposed to a boundary delineation.

dryflyguy: The more branches (tribs.) that feed a stream, the larger its catchment area will be, and the greater its flow will be. Each of the streams in question is a first order stream, meaning it has no branches, but only a single channel. Each is a first order trib. to the catawissa.

When two first order streams join, they form a second order stream. When 2 second order streams join, they form a third order stream, and so on.

Fair enough Tups. I though it was interesting that none of those streams had tributaries. Usually streams that flow a couple of miles will have a couple of small tribs.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 18:40


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 581
Offline
Jack: A 2nd order stream can't technically flow into a 1st order stream, rather a 1st order will always flow into a larger order stream, not necessarily a 2nd order. In a case where a 1st order flows into a 2nd order, the 2nd order remains a 2nd order stream. The 1st order has no bearing on the 2nd order stream's designation. However, where a 2nd order intersects with another 2nd order, the stream becomes a 3rd order. When a 2nd order flows into a 3rd order, the 3rd order remains a 3rd order. etc.

I believe this system of nomenclature was devised by a geologist named Strahler in the 1950's. It's simply a way to identify streams as they flow down from the mountaintop, or highest elevation. It can't tell us anything about the absolute size or structure of the stream. In the Ridge and Valley and Alleghany Plateau provinces in PA, a 1st order stream is usually a step-across channel. In the Rocky Mtns, a first order might be 20 or 30 feet wide. It's all relative to the landscape.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 19:29


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 581
Offline
I'm not a geologist, but the near-vertical walls immediately adjacent to the north side of each channel, suggests that the stream channels lie in geological faults or joints. Where is that fellow with the elk avatar when you need him?

Posted on: 2013/8/21 19:36


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1808
Offline
I only remember fishing klingermans in the winter -- don't believe I have been there in the summer to see if there is water.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 21:01


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 581
Offline
How high up did you fish Klingermanns? You must have started at the road at the base of the ridge. Does the character of the stream change much as you increase in altitude?

K-bob, I could go on for days talking about stream morphology, but I realize others might get their fill pretty quickly. If that's the case, just ignore me. Thanks.

Posted on: 2013/8/21 21:28


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1808
Offline
I believe I only saw the stream at about 950 to 1000 ft elevation. discussion is interesting. I have never hiked further up one of these tiny streams to see what the combination of less water but higher elevation produces: small pools or water gurgling under rocks?

Posted on: 2013/8/21 21:56


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/2/26 12:05
From Near RedRock MTN.
Posts: 87
Offline
I live 15 minutes from Klingaman's run. It's shown on my map as Klingaman's however I think it is in fact Klingerman's based on the Klingerman family heritage in the Mainville area. The lower half of Klingerman's was posted, or private land for some time, I think it still is? Furnace run, If I am recalling the name correctly, is clipped off the edge of your map, and is quite longer, and also contains a mild population of brook trout. Both are very tight quarters. A better option, would be to explore scotch run. Ten years ago, it was a fine native stream, really fine. However, its been stocked over, and developed near its headwaters as Hazleton starts to sprawl. As a side note, there is signage going up around the town of Catawissa, which states " you are now entering the Catawissa Creek watershed, home of a future blue ribbon trout stream".

Posted on: 2013/8/21 22:03

Edited by Heberly on 2013/8/21 22:33:55


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13487
Online
The whole first order vs. second order thing very much depends on your definition of "stream". Even first order streams usually have little rivlets flowing down into them. Those likely have seeps coming into them, etc... After a rain there are many more streams than there were before the rain. Does a 1st order become second order after a thunderstorm? lol.

Is the definition based on permanent vs. temporary?

As far as watershed area vs. catchment area, in MOST cases they are the same. There are exceptions, especially in limestone regions. There are regions which are not within the watershed, but are within the catchment of a stream. i.e. surface watershed vs. ground watershed is a way to think of it. There are places where the surface water and groundwater flow in opposite directions.

An example of this is Scotia Barrens SW of State College (SGL 176). The surface water flows SW into Spruce Creek, so it's in the Spruce Creek watershed. However, the water that enters the ground flows NE and emerges at Big Spring in Bellefonte, so it is in the Spring Creek catchment.

Posted on: 2013/8/22 7:43

Edited by pcray1231 on 2013/8/22 7:59:49


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1808
Offline
I enjoy getting off the beaten path --or any path at all -- but its no guarantee where acid rain or AMD are concerned

Posted on: 2013/8/23 8:09


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2006/9/13 12:37
Posts: 496
Offline
Stone_Fly wrote:
Quote:

I though it was interesting that none of those streams had tributaries. Usually streams that flow a couple of miles will have a couple of small tribs.

I meant to say they had no tributaries, anyway it's interesting that they don't particularly the longer ones.

Posted on: 2013/8/23 21:06


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1808
Offline
"I meant to say they had no tributaries, anyway it's interesting that they don't particularly the longer ones."

maybe that fits with the idea that they run thru geologic cracks? another sign they will be tiny!

Posted on: 2013/8/24 13:16


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2011/5/15 15:14
From Scranton
Posts: 85
Offline
This is a topic I've been meaning to learn about, but could never really think of the right questions to ask. I learned a lot just reading through this thread, and I'm sure many other have as well. Maybe at a newbie jam or something somebody can do a map reading lesson.

Posted on: 2013/8/25 13:07


Re: guesing width of small streams from maps

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1808
Offline
one thought on reading maps when choosing places to fish: fish like pools, and streams will tend to dig holes and form pools where they bend. so on a detailed map, I would tend like a twisty looking stream section verses a straighter stream section... also more pools in steeper streams

Posted on: 2013/8/25 14:25



« 1 2 (3) 4 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
Will you be fly fishing this autumn?
Yes
No
Thinking about it
_PL_TOTALVOTES
The poll will close at 2014/10/31 17:56
Comments?





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com