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Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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2008/6/14 23:22
From Central, PA
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Has been many problems with amish over fertilizing in our area many fines have been given out but they still over fertilize anyhow elk and pine creek has been hurt from it also.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 19:13


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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From down the block from the Letort.
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this is a great line from the article:

Quote:
Below Glen Iron the river is flat, gravelly and weedy and it is really boat water, but a man with high waders and high determination, plus a good casting arm, can do a lot in it.


And just a thought about the spot burning turn that this thread is taking (sorry can't help myself)....Spot burning has always been present, the internets is just that latest rendition of it. Penn's has had this subject article written about it (50+ years ago? and there're still trouts?!?!? omg!!), also an entire book written about it, how many other articles? How many pages of 'guide book' knowledge passed on, how many other websites besides some obscure fishing report on a fly fishing forum? (which is pretty much almost exactly the beta you'd get if you weren't too damn lazy to call the local shop and get the information yourself)....and guess what? the fishing is still good and there's a good chance it's the better for it. More awareness, more involvement, more invested interests in the stream. I wonder what the Letort and the Big Spring would be like now if Vince & Charlie hadn't 'spot burned' them in those dang books they wrote back in the day? Would there still be a hatchery churning away at the headwaters of Big Spring today? What if the pesticide accident on the Letort hadn't gotten the attention it did? What if that'd become a regularly occuring 'oopsie,' just something that happens to that old crick that runs thru town?

And those are books that also mention plenty of other quality waters, which I can pretty much go to most any time I'd like and find solitude when I'm looking for it. Maybe I'm just lucky or somehow figured something out, but to me, when I hear 'spot burning!!,' I hear selfishness. There is so much water out there, get over it, there's room for everybody.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 19:23


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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If there's been a decline in the fishery at Penn's Creek over the last 55 years, I don't think it has anything to do with angling pressure.

I truly wish that it didn't get so high and muddy after it rains, or so warm in the summer. I wish there was less plowing, and a wider riparian corridor with tree plantings along the stream and tribs in the upper reaches. But that would require a substantial investment in soil conservation- including lessening the acreage available to cultivate- and I don't expect the farmers to put up the money to do that on their own. I don't think they could afford to do that without receiving equivalent compensation.

For all that, there's a huge population of trout in Penn's. Nice size ones. I see them all the time, most often when they spit out the hook and flee, or when I blunder across them while wading in the riffles.

Plenty of hatches, too. My impression is that overall, the creek is in pretty good shape. The thermal problem in the summertime is the worst of it. Fishing pressure is a negligible problem in comparison.

fwiw, I have to wonder whether Penn's was stocked in 1958...my guess is "yes".

Posted on: 2013/3/6 19:31


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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DryFlyGuy-The Dan Shields/George Harvey collaboration about Harvey's fishing career mentions just what you noted in your post about the SI article.
As for spot burning: Some of us absolutely abhor spot burners and spot burning for many reasons. But, we're never going to change the minds of those who love spot burning and spot burners. For us, it is another losing battle. For those who love spot burning, it is another glorious victory over those of us who hate it.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 20:03


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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Quote:
First, a PFBC list of upwards of a thousand class A streams.


No, they don't. I haven't counted, but it's in the neighborhood of half that.

Quote:
is not “outing” those streams it is nothing more than a listing of all class A streams in PA. Some are definitely better than others but the list doesn’t identify which ones and nobody can tell which are the better ones from the list.


All class A streams are very good. Probably top 5% of all streams, and top 10% of wild trout streams in the state.

Quote:
Second, every last one that is one public property gets fished regularly? Where did you get that stat?


On a small stream, fished once a week is regular. I didn't argue that they were popular. I argued that they weren't unknown. It means hundreds of anglers know about them. They aren't secrets.

Quote:
Talked about where? Not everyone talks about where they fish. Some may tell nobody, some may tell a select few they can trust and some may blab it to the world. Me finding a stream and telling a friend about it that isn’t outing that stream.


I don't know about you, but when I talk with other fishermen, I always talk about streams. And is it outing streams? Sure! I do agree with you that singling out a stream in a glorifying report for the world to see isn't in good form, and if you think I'm arguing differently, you need to re-read my post.

All I was saying is that for Class A streams the size of a Penns Creek, there's no way your going to keep it a secret. Perhaps without the glory reports it's not such the destination for out of staters and even in staters don't have to make X number of trips per year. But you can be sure that every single serious angler in the region will know of it's existence and a little about it, even if there weren't glorious reports of it in magazines and online forums. It may be less crowded, but it wouldn't be empty. It wouldn't be the secret of a small club of locals.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 20:06


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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Penns Creek is a terrible fishery please don't come here and waste your time fish spring creek with George Humphreys Or one of Beavers pay to fish lands lol

Posted on: 2013/3/6 20:12


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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I had never heard of "spotburning" until I found this forum. Been on here for about a year and honestly I'm still a little confused about what is and what is not spot burning. Really to me it seems like a matter of personel opinion, some think just talking about a stream is doing it, posting about it in a forum, writing an article,pfbc stream listing, and any other way of communicating about a place to fish is spot burning. So what about all the books of streams? Maps that show you exactly how to get there, hatch charts, listing of flies to use and when. Just seems like anything but absolute silence is spot burning. I personally like the map books,articles, and someone telling me about a good place to fish, cause alot of those places that's the only way I'll find them. Sure you find some on your own but it's nice to get some inside info. before you go. Ya know?

Posted on: 2013/3/6 21:16
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Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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lv2nymph,

Absolutely. My personal opinion is that we should all share 100% freely. Famous waters are famous for a reason, but they get OVERFAMOUS because of the stance that's it's ok to talk about streams everyone knows, but not ok to talk about the lesser known ones. We don't have a problem with too many anglers in this state. We have a problem with overconcentration of anglers. Stream X looks like a zoo while there's tons of other very good streams that go lightly fished.

As someone said, this is circular logic. Don't spotburn the lesser known streams. Which means all that we can talk about is the well known ones. Which means singling them out.

That said, I value friendships more than my stance on this. If I have been shown or told about a stream, I may discuss in person or via PM, but I tend to keep it hush on the public board out of respect for the person who informed me. Lately, really, I tend to shy away from giving lesser known stream names publicly, regardless of how I learned of the stream. I think that makes me just another person contributing to the problem outlined above. But it seems to be the unofficial semi-agreed upon law of the community, and I am a member of the community here. Follow the rule to prevent fights, while advocating for change.

Via PM, I'm an open book. If I don't know the person well, I will generally give dozens of options, though, rather than highlight one.

Posted on: 2013/3/7 8:04


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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To me if someone in the eastern half of the country has not heard about penns they must live under a rock

Posted on: 2013/3/7 10:49


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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Hey a great tool for finding these class A streams is the pennsylvannia ultimate fishing map app that UFMGUY made. No stream is secret on there and you can get turn by turn directions right to access!

Posted on: 2013/3/7 14:58
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Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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So post them Greenie, we'll see if you theory holds up, I doubt it.
As for Penns not being known, my guess is that it was known as soon as the first settler went to Penns Valley and fished it. The next family went there and the first guy told him about the number of fish and so on....

Posted on: 2013/3/7 16:00


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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If you just want to catch fish Spring Creek is the place its polluted with trout. If you want beauty of scenery and a real challenge fish penns.

Posted on: 2013/3/8 10:08


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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For those of you who like to read about Penns Creek: Destination writer vic attardo has an early season article about Penns in the current issue of the Pennsylvania Angler.

Posted on: 2013/3/8 11:26


Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

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I'm just happy I fished it and all the others in the south and central part of the state in the 60's and 70's, now I could care less if i ever fish them again.

Posted on: 2013/3/8 12:20
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Re: 1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek
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True story as I came into the office there was a couple of brand new unopened Yellow Books at the front door. Needless to say no one even bothered to bring them in the office. Just thought is was interesting considering this conversation. Glad to see the dialog and welcome the conversation. Very open to hearing and sharing of all views.

Seems that stream identification is not new and I would suggest that stream information is so readily available that fishing pressure is distributed across many areas. I can't imagine one source be responsible for the demise of any one waterway. For decades the PFBC, fly shops, authors, magazines, books, newspapers, guides, bloggers, anglers and websites have identified, shared, discussed and directed anglers to these waters. The amount of information being provided from all of these sources is like taking a drink from a fire hose.

My quick view at the PFBC website suggests:
There are over 730 stocked streams
Over a 200 hundred special reg trout waters
Over 3,500 wild trout streams - it's there trust me
Thousands of miles of trout waters open to the public

Sources for stream identification information
The PFBC offers the most information about stream locations in many different forms free of charge: paper maps, online county maps, detailed stocking reports, PDF's listing Wild Brook Streams, Biologist Reports, Wild Trout Fishing Hot Spots, Trout-Stocked Fishing Hot Spots and Regional Notes from the Stream to name a few. For example in the PFBC print publication Pennsylvania Angler the May 2012 issue, Little Juniata River Float details on trout fly fishing the Little J. and this month is about Penn's! Each month the publication features a different waterway in the state. This often is online too.

TU meetings are a traditional source for stream information sharing. Not only are anglers sharing personal notes, but experts present at TU meetings providing details about streams and where to go.

At the Lancaster Fly Fishing Show thousands of people heard presentations about streams from across the state and how really great those streams can be for anglers. Someone sitting in one of those presentations is there not because they want to hear about their home waters, but wants to learn more and go fish at a new waterway.

Here are a few books the cover the subject:
Flyfisher's Guide to Pennsylvania- Dave Wolf
Trout Streams and Hatches of Pennsylvania - Charles R. Meck
Trout Streams of Pennsylvania - Dwight Landis
Trout Unlimited Guide to Pennsylvania Limestone Streams - A. Joseph Armstrong
Spring Creek Strategies - Mike Heck
Fly Fishing Pennsylvania's Spring Creek by Daniel L. Shields
Pennsylvania Blue-Ribbon Fly-Fishing Guide by Barry Beck and Cathy Beck

Print media covers this as well
Mid Atlantic Fly Fishing Guide provided free at every fly shop
Weekly Fishing Reports Pittsburgh Post Gazzette
Fly Fishermen Magazine

The number of online sources are numerous with personal blogs and micro fly fishing sites. This trend will only continue. Mobile is providing data wherever you may be and Gogal Publishing is an example of the next generation data starting to occur with their GPS Fishing Guide to Pennsylvania on smartphones.

Real-time will continue to expand and be pushed further into mobile. Just gonna happen. At one time there were only a few computers in a few big businesses. Now we all have many computers in many locations: homes, cars, pockets, and some will be wearing them next.

I agree with several things that have been suggest, especially the idea of not talking about one stream. If we just talked about Yellow Breeches for example, yes it would get a lot of attention, but this site discusses hundreds of streams just like the PFBC. No one stream is singled out and that is why it is called Paflyfish not the Yellow Breeches Fly Fishing.

The anglers are already there. There are several shared reports on Penn's Creek during May. Just because it is reported that there are green drakes coming off on Penn's Creek in May there is still going to be plenty of anglers. There is an over whelming amount of information that directs people to the streams in our region. Plenty of people have been going to Penn's Creek and regional streams during the drake hatch well before the Internet.

There is about one stream report a year for Kettle Creek. I can guarantee that from mid April thru May that KC looks as much like a PSU Tailgater as it does a mountainous fly fishing experience.

So how do people mostly hear about streams? Ask any marketing person the best we to sell something is by word of mouth. Kettle Creek is packed with people not because of a stream report, but people telling each other where to go. Stream reports are validations to the data that people hear and read about elsewhere. People use all this data to make plans to go to places not just single sources.

If someone told me to try out a restaurant I would look up their website and then go to restaurant review site like Yelp. The last thing I am going to do is take information from some untrusted source, drive for an hour to spend $50 and risk eating some crappy food. I am going to vet out the information first.

I think the same thing is true for stream identification. One post on a site is not going to have people leave their jobs, fill up the truck for $60 and drive off to some fishing hole they never heard of before for the evening to catch that one big bow that was pictured. People hear information, collect it as pieces and make decisions on several data sources before heading out.

I think stream identification from Paflyfish is a valid and trusted source, but it is not the only one. Again thanks to everyone for their open and honest views of the situation. Personally we have a lot of issues facing our sport. Discouraging people to fish isn't one of them. Think about taking a kid fly fishing this year!!

BTW, those Yellow Page books are still sitting out by the door and have not been touched.

Posted on: 2013/3/8 15:03



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