winter fishing and regulations

wetnet

wetnet

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I fish NE Pa and when I asked a Pa boat and fish commission the question about fishing trout streams all year, any of them if you didn't keep a fish was it illegal. She basically couldn't say it wasn't. But in the best interest of the fish and regulations when is it OK to fish during the winter in any regular water for trout? We have only about 3 streams that have extended seasons. So during the winter should we stay off the rest or is it OK if we are responsible and do catch and release. Are there times that any fishing even for the extended fishing areas that would be better to refrain from fishing due to spawning etc? Just trying to make some good decisions.
 
wet,
This is a perennial issue that comes up on this and other Pennsylvania fishing forums every year: where is it it legal to fish during the off season? The issue is more complex than it seems but the consensus generally is that you cannot fish designated trout water (including C&R) during the closed season. The devil in the details revolves around the term "designated trout waters" and their "downstream areas." These areas are often ill defined. Many of us have felt for years that the PFBC needed more clarity on this issue. It is clear that you can fish "Class A" and "Wilderness" trout streams during the closed season if you release your catch. Even these areas are sometimes unclear as to where they begin and end however. My preferance, just to be safe, is to stick to special reg waters and areas I know to be Class A during the off season.
 
It is discussed every year and still completely misunderstood. The "extended season" lasts from Labor Day to March 1 next year and you can fish any Approved Trout Water and it's downstream area (believed to mean any part of the same creek downstream of a designated ATW). The extended season does not apply to any other areas. Special regs areas are controlled by their regs and are typically year-round. Class A and other waters that may hold wild trout are NEVER CLOSED to fishing (unless also an ATW, in which case probably* closed from March 1 to Opening Day); however, trout are out of season on them and must be released unharmed or you have violated the law even if the harm is accidental. Besides the lack of clarity on what is a "downstream area" of an ATW, the only grey area is whether targeting trout in non-ATWs is OK. There is no regulation prohibiting fishing in or targeting trout in such streams.

* I say "probably" because there are some lakes and maybe streams open until April 1st by special assignment.
 
http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/inland.html

"NOTE: Approved trout waters are closed to fishing from March 1 to the opening day of the regular trout season in April, unless included in the Early Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program or Regional Opening Day of Trout Season Program."

Here's the TT regs: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/trophytrout.html

C & R FFO regs: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/catchreleaseffo.html

ATW regs: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/troutwaters.html

Are you creeling fish or C & R? Other then the ATW that are on the list and closed from March 1 to opening day, I'd say you're safe fly fishing all other waterways throughout the year as long as you're C & R. And if you're not, then "delayed harvest" would have to apply to the waterway you're fishing...
 
Fishidiot,

In the extended season (till March 1), the approved trout waters, and all areas downstream, are OPEN to fishing. The closed season is only from March 1 till opening day. Most special regs (all?) are open year round. The question revolves around the headwater streams.

JackM,

Do you have a source for saying Class A and other wild trout streams are never closed? We're assuming it is not an approved trout water, nor downstream of one, nor under special regulations. That includes a lot of little headwater streams, many of them class A. My understanding was that they were off limits during the extended season, unless you could reasonably claim you were targeting a different species and catching trout was accidental. I certainly could be wrong. But if they are fishable, it begs the question, is there anywhere that you can't fish for trout in the extended season?
 
pcray, I believe there is more info in the question and answer section. Bottom line, the only waters closed to fishing at any time during the year are approved trout waters from March 1 to opening day (unless otherwise stated). Therefore, if a headwater stream is not witnin the boundaries of "approved trout waters," then they are not closed to fishinf.

Even downstream areas of approved trout waters are not actually closed to fishing. You can still fish the lower parts of Tionesta Creek, Clarion River, etc, below the ATWs. It is in the wording. Extended season applies to downstream areas, but no mention of them being closed after extended season.

That is, unless this has changed in the last year or two.
 
here ya go.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/pages/qa/fish/trout_ext_season.htm

there is a difference between closed to fishing and a closed season.

Thier bottom line:

"Bottom Line: The current regulations are not intended to encourage fishing for any species during the closed season even on a "catch-and-release" basis, but it is not illegal to fish as long as the fish is immediately returned unharmed to the waters from taken. Anglers who target a fish during the closed season could potentially harm the fish and would then be liable for violating the closed season regulation. "

In other words, what Jack said.
 
FarmerDave,

Thanks for the link and the explanation.

And Jack,

Guess you were right.

It's still about as clear as mud to me. I think this needs to be cleared up by the fish commission. Fishing is allowed, but hurting the fish is illegal, and fishing by definition endangers the fish, so by fishing you are basically rolling the dice. Some logic there. Definitely a gray area.
 
pcray,
My original post did not claim that designated trout waters are closed to fishing during the extended season - but rather that they're closed to fishing during the CLOSED season.


"The issue is more complex than it seems but the consensus generally is that you cannot fish designated trout water (including C&R) during the closed season."
 
Jeez this one never gets resolved!

In regards to the CLOSED season from March 1 to Opening Day; Approved Trout Waters do NOT have boundaries. An ATW is the WHOLE stream from headwaters to mouth UNLESS the PFBC designates SPECIFIC sections as the only ATW section on that particular stream.

Stocking sections do not an ATW make. Take Ridley Creek in Delaware County for example; the ENTIRE stream is listed as ATW yet the PFBC only stocks three sections. So come March 1 the WHOLE STREAM IS CLOSED to fishing excluding the FFO section.

The only exception to this rule is when a stream crosses two or more counties and is only listed as an ATW in one county. In that example the stream is CLOSED in the county where it is listed but OPEN in the county where it is not designated as an ATW. The Lehigh River is an example of this. It is ATW in Carbon County so it is closed to fishing come March 1 but is is NOT ATW in Lehigh County so it is OPEN come March 1.

In the case of Class A SECTIONS which are part of a stream that is designated as ATW further downstream or upstream in the same county; the ENTIRE stream is closed INCLUDING the Class A section as long as both the ATW section AND the Class A section are in the same county. Two examples of this are the Class A section of the Little Lehigh Creek and the Class A section of Cedar Creek; both in Lehigh County. The ENTIRE stream is CLOSED to fishing in Lehigh County from March 1 to Opening Day including the Class A sections.

An example where a Class A section of an ATW is OPEN during the closed season is the Class A section of the Pohopoco Creek. The Pohopoco is listed as ATW in Carbon County but is not listed as an ATW in Monroe County; therefore the Class A section of the Pohopoco in Monroe County is OPEN after March 1 to fishing.

Everything else that is NOT listed as ATW which includes Class A streams that are NOT sections of ATW, Wilderness Trout, Wild Brook Trout Management and unstocked streams are open with harvest restrictions during the closed period.

It's as clear as water to me.
 
As clear as it may seem to be to you, you failed to articulate it accurately. While most of what you say is true, the Extended Season lasts throughout February. The ATWs do not close until midnight March 1. So close, but yet so far.... ;-)

I EDITED YOUR DATES FOR YOU.
 
Error duly noted but unfortunately unable to edit. March 1 it is!

Should have known better since Feb 28/29 is my annual Class A section of ATW fishing trip.

By Jack: I EDITED YOUR DATES FOR YOU.
 
To my knowledge native streams are never closed as you simply follow catch and release all the time. Most of the stocked streams ae not worth hitting during the winter, as why would you want to catch something that was raised in a tank? Hit the native streams, knowing what you hook up may have come from a female you caught and released last year.

My last point is you can ask two conservation officers the same question and get two different answers. I am not sure even they fully understand the landmines that are planted in the verbiage of regulations.
 
Always:

If you want to know the law, don't ask a cop on the beat!

I've got more bad information from WCO's than you would believe including some misinformation that was contrary to what was CLEARLY written in the Summary. The good news is they graciously accepted the error of their ways when it was courteously pointed out to them. ;-)

WCO's have a tough enough job without having to be knowledgeable of every nuance of the law so the confusion continues. For that reason whenever I have a "legal" question; I bypass the Regional Office or the WCO and go right to the PFBC Law Enforcement Division in Harrisburg and request a definition in writing. This way if the WCO misunderstands what I understand to be true; at least I have a half-arsed written defense.

The explanation I posted earlier (with an incorrect commencement date graciously edited by JackM) came from an official of the PFBC Law Enforcement Division. You are correct about "native streams" in one sense but incorrect in another; ALL of them are NOT open ALL the time.

Class A or un-stocked ("native") SECTIONS of streams designated as Approved Trout Water are CLOSED from March 1 to Opening Day IF the section is in the same county where the Approved Trout Water is listed. The key word here is SECTIONS that are part of streams designated as Approved Trout Water. IMHO ever since the PFBC started posting stocking information that included section limits people started getting really confused thinking that only the sections that were stocked were considered Approved Trout Water. The WHOLE stream is designated as ATW for the purpose of seasons and harvest regulations not just the stocked part and that includes "native" sections that are not under Special Regulations.

So if you were in your own neighborhood and you decide to go fishing on the "native" section of Cedar Creek off Cedar Crest Blvd in Allentown on March 2nd you are breaking the law even if the WCO doesn't realize it. BUT, if you go fishing in your own backyard in Limeport on the Class A section of the Saucon Creek you are fine because the Saucon is listed as Approved Trout Water in Northampton County NOT Lehigh County where the Class A section is. It's confusing but it's all about the county where the stream section is located and if it is listed as ATW in that same county.

As long as you stick to "native" streams that are not part of any stream that is listed as Approved Trout Water you are fine. Trout Creek on the other side of South Mountain is a perfect example. It is a Class A "native stream" not on the ATW list in Lehigh County or anyplace else so it is wide open all year long.

But don't take my word for it; ask the Law Enforcement Division yourself making sure to ask them specifically about "native streams" INCLUDING un-stocked or Class A SECTIONS of Approved Trout Waters.
 
How clear did you say it was for you Larry? ,I take it you had recent rain where that water is.
:-D
In regards to the CLOSED season from March 1 to Opening Day; Approved Trout Waters do NOT have boundaries.
Click to expand...

Not true. you gave one exception, I'll give a few more later. Bottom line, some ATWs have boundaries, and they aren't always county lines.

The only exception to this rule is when a stream crosses two or more counties and is only listed as an ATW in one county. In that example the stream is CLOSED in the county where it is listed but OPEN in the county where it is not designated as an ATW. The Lehigh River is an example of this. It is ATW in Carbon County so it is closed to fishing come March 1 but is is NOT ATW in Lehigh County so it is OPEN come March 1.
Click to expand...

Although you exception is valid, it is not the only exception as stated above. Here are a few more. Check out the boundaries of these ATW sections.

Tionesta Creek (county line downstream to Kelletville Bridge)

Neshannock Creek (SR 0058 at Mercer downstream to county line)

There are quite a few that don't go by county line. i chose those two because they are better known streams, one with a boundary on the downstream side and one with a boundary on the upstream side that is not a county line. Sometimes it is a bridge or a road, or even a property line. Granted, many times that is also the start of a special regs section, but not always. Crawford County has several examples of ATW boundaries that are not county lines or the start of special regulations waters. not sure if they would be worth fishing though. :-D

Your points about about Class A’s were good points. One cannot automatically assume a Class A section is open to fishing all year long. Need to check the ATW list.

This is worth repeating.

Everything else that is NOT listed as ATW which includes Class A streams that are NOT sections of ATW, Wilderness Trout, Wild Brook Trout Management and unstocked streams are open with harvest restrictions during the closed period.
Click to expand...

I'll clear it up just a little bit more. It should say open to fishing with harvest prohibited, not only during that time, but also during the extended season.

I'm sure there are other examples that we didn't think of.

When it comes to headwaters, I look at it a little differently. To me headwaters consist of several small streams. Hense the use of the word headwaters or headwater streams. Usually only one of these tributaries carries the same name. It is true that if the stream is ATW by name the tiny tributary of the same name is also condidered ATW. If it is a tributary in the headwaters under a different neme... open to fishing. call it a technicality, but I'm going with it.
 
Ok, we're getting a little clearer here. Still think the PFBC needs to enact some verbiage to clear things up. Lets try:

Regular Season: Opening day to Sept. 1
Extended Season: Sept. 1 to March 1
Closed Season: March 1-Opening day

Categories:

I: Wild trout streams:

1. Streams that are not listed as ATW, nor is downstream of any stream listed as ATW.

Note: most, BUT NOT ALL, ATW boundaries are county lines. You can be miles upstream of the nearest stocking point, and in wild trout country, and that stream still can be listed ATW. Check your regulation books closely....

Regulations: Open to fishing year round. But no harvest in the extended or closed seasons, and at those times, if you injure a fish even accidently you can get into trouble. So fish at your own peril in the extended and closed seasons. PFBC is basically saying they don't want you fishing them outside of the regular season, but they don't want to have to monitor and enforce it either. They reserve the right to pursue and prosecute those who cause problems. But other than that, they discourage but don't outright prohibit fishing (wink wink).

II: Approved trout waters.

1. All streams listed as ATW. Again, the listing often includes areas far from the stocked area and can include waters which have wild trout, or are even Class A.
2. All areas downstream of any ATW, regardless of the boundaries of the ATW.

Regulations: Open to fishing in the regular and extended season. Closed during the closed season.

III. Special Regs.

1. Applies only within the boundaries of the section.

Regulations: Variable, follow the regs for that stream.
 
FarmerDave wrote:
This is worth repeating.

Everything else that is NOT listed as ATW which includes Class A streams that are NOT sections of ATW, Wilderness Trout, Wild Brook Trout Management and unstocked streams are open with harvest restrictions during the closed period.
Click to expand...

I'll clear it up just a little bit more. It should say open to fishing with harvest prohibited, not only during that time, but also during the extended season.
Click to expand...

Hmm, do any of the streams where the ATW is limited to a particular section have "downstream areas"? Wouldn't such downstream area (even though "not listed as ATW") be open to fishing with limited harvest during the Extended Season?
 
pcray1231 wrote:
II: Approved trout waters.

1. All streams listed as ATW. Again, the listing often includes areas far from the stocked area and can include waters which have wild trout, or are even Class A.
2. All areas downstream of any ATW, regardless of the boundaries of the ATW.

Regulations: Open to fishing in the regular and extended season. Closed during the closed season.
Click to expand...

Hmm...

Wouldn't a downstream area of an ATW which is in a different County where the stream is NOT listed as an ATW be open to fishing during the period between March 1 and Opening Day?
 
JackM wrote:
FarmerDave wrote:
This is worth repeating.

Everything else that is NOT listed as ATW which includes Class A streams that are NOT sections of ATW, Wilderness Trout, Wild Brook Trout Management and unstocked streams are open with harvest restrictions during the closed period.
Click to expand...

I'll clear it up just a little bit more. It should say open to fishing with harvest prohibited, not only during that time, but also during the extended season.
Click to expand...

Hmm, do any of the streams where the ATW is limited to a particular section have "downstream areas"? Wouldn't such downstream area (even though "not listed as ATW") be open to fishing with limited harvest during the Extended Season?
Click to expand...


Dang!

You got me Jack.

I knew i should have put you on retainer. :-D
 
It may be the case that trying to restate the regulations is just as tricky as dealing with them as they are currently written.
 
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