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Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs
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2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
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Hi Mike,

Let me express a few opinions of this sort of evaluation. I may be repeating myself or at least I think we discussed this in the past but here goes. I believe you are extracting this data from the Trout Summit reprots?

Taking a group of individual examples of change and averaging their result to determine that the change "overall" is empiracle is disingenuous to the streams that had favorable change. For instance you say:

Quote:

Mike wrote:

Brown trout (BT)responses to special regs were examined from 19 limestoners and 23 freestoners.

In limestoners the legal size (7") and longer BT emperically (means the number got larger, but it may not be anything more than natural variation or sampling error unless the number is statistically significant, ) increased from 826 per mile to 1635 per mile. This was not a statistically significant change (meaning there was substantial variation in the responses of individual stream sections). It was a substantial increase even if it was not caused by the regs. About three quarters of the limestoners showed an emperical increase in 12" and longer BT as well. [/b]

In the freestoners legal size (7") brown trout (BT) emperically decreased from 433 per mile to 308 per mile. Again, this decrease was not statistically significant. Few (only 4) freestoners responded favorably, and one of these was Codorus Creek, a tail-race fishery that is fairly fertile....not a typical freestoner. About one third of the freestoners showed an increase in the abundance of 12" and longer BT.

Conclusion: Freestoners are generally not appropriate for special regualtions designed to improve the abundance or size distribution of brown trout populations in Pa. Brown trout abundance, on the other hand, improved substantially in limstoners following special reg implementation despite the fact that the change was statistically insignificant.


My point is why should we look at the streams "generally" Sure while you can collect that data and compile it, it definitely tells us how individuals respond in a group. It also tells us that all sample streams did not respond in the same way which indicated in my opinion that the ones that respond favorably should be allowed to continue to improve rather than be dragged down with the rest of the class. Conversely, the streams that do not respond favorably should be assessed as to why they responded poorly and recommendations made for their improvement.

I can appreciate the data analysis and your message but it depends on what our goals are as conservationists and fisheries managers as to how we interpret the data...and what we use it for.

Maurice

Posted on: 2006/12/8 11:50
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

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2006/11/10 8:32
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Maurice, I would respectfully disagree that any of this was disingenuous. In fact, I made every effort other than name the waters (other than Codorus) to point out in the brief discussion that followed the results of the "general" statistical evaluation how many waters improved.

Additionally, the Trout Summit was in response to a TU request that we do an overall evaluation of our programs, including the special reg program, and the data that we collected over the years on a number of different topics, including special regs. Overall evaluations result in general conclusions, but I think those general conclusions, no matter which direction they lead us, are valuable in educating the angling public. For instance, I always mention that there were a few exceptions in the freestoner category. Certainly, every time I speak to a group you would not require me to list each water individually.

Finally, where special regs "did not work" they did not do so because angler harvest was not the limiting factor on trout abundance or size structure.

Posted on: 2006/12/8 12:32


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7647
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Wulffman,


"Mike, here is an anecdotal situation that illustrates one of the exceptions: I was fishing a Class A freestoner in a fairly populated area (one of Chaz's favorites) when a WCO stopped to check my license and chat. We had a nice discussion about where the fishing is good on this stream, and he told me about seeing some fishermen upstream recently with stringers full of fish. He said it was too bad, but it's legal."

I have given up on stating that any stream I fish is a favorite stream, the only favorite that I have is the stream I'm fishing that day.

There are only 3 streams that I have fished this year that are "Approved Trout Waters" and I'm only sure that 1 of them is opened during the "Extended Season." Therefore unless these guys were fishing Pine Creek in Gods Country, they were illegaly harvesting trout, because Wild Trout Streams are strictly C & R after Labor Day.

Which brings up a point, "Many streams, lakes, ponds, and reservoirs are officially classified as “approved trout waters. This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. The waters listed here are open to trout harvest during the “extended
season” (see page 6). Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only approved
trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open during this period.

These waters are closed to all fishing (including taking of minnows) from March 1 to 8 a.m. on the opening day of the trout season. Some of these waters have been included in the Early
Season Trout-Stocked Waters Program and are open from March 1 through March 31.
A person shall be deemed to be fi shing if he or she has in possession any fi shing line, rod, or other
device that can be used for fi shing while on or in any water or on the banks within 25 feet of any water where fishing is prohibited."

Posted on: 2006/12/9 8:22


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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Here are the problems that I have with this work, first and foremost you cannot lump Limestone Streams and Freestone Stream into the same category, and they are very different animals.
Second, when you look at the streams where Special regulations had no impact you have to ask, why did they not have an impact? You have to look at these streams as though they are impaired, because on Streams such as Saucon Creek, The Bushkill, Monocacy Creek, Codorus Creek, and others; all had significant increases from before the regulations went into affect.
Third even on Slate Run and Cedar Run There is an impact regarding what regulations do for freestone streams, do you really think there would be a single wild trout in these streams if it were not for regulations? And what about Trophy Trout vs. C & R, Granted Cedar Run has a very high population of wild browns, but how many are over the 14" limit? Only a few according to PFBC statistics, what if the TT regs were made 18" and over? What would happen then? I think these are all questions that have not been answered by the numbers presented. While what you are saying could be true do we really know enough to say that the statements made by PFBC are indeed true, I think that PFBC does, but I don’t think anglers do, and that is the crux of the problem.
Please don't take this personally, as I believe these are ligitimate questions that require answers.
For the record I believe that the streams in the Brook Trout Enhancement program may not show a significant increase in the brook trout populations, because the impact of habitat is probably greater then the amount of harvest, with the possible exception of Kettle Creek.
I do hope I'm wrong but I don't think so. How do you sort this out? It is a daunting task, and I'm not sure we can ask PFBC to do it because it may be impossible. However, it you were to make all freestone wild trout streams C & R for 5 years, you might be able to sort it out quickly. Then sprotmans groups would have an understanding of where work should be done and not throw money where it is not needed.

Posted on: 2006/12/9 8:39


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6206
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
Third even on Slate Run and Cedar Run There is an impact regarding what regulations do for freestone streams, do you really think there would be a single wild trout in these streams if it were not for regulations?


Chaz, I'm on the same side as you, but in making this kind of statement, you are "leading with the chin."

Posted on: 2006/12/9 9:38


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/9/14 10:34
From Southeast PA
Posts: 521
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
I have given up on stating that any stream I fish is a favorite stream, the only favorite that I have is the stream I'm fishing that day.

There are only 3 streams that I have fished this year that are "Approved Trout Waters" and I'm only sure that 1 of them is opened during the "Extended Season." Therefore unless these guys were fishing Pine Creek in Gods Country, they were illegaly harvesting trout, because Wild Trout Streams are strictly C & R after Labor Day.

Chaz,
I was talking about the West Branch Perkiomen. I know you have been very involved in conservation on the WB. I was just avoiding naming the stream, but I guess there was no reason not to identify it.

This occurred this June or July, so it was during the season.

I was just trying to make the point, from personal experience, that there are cases where wild trout harvest by a relative few CAN ruin fishing for the majority who don't harvest, especially in the more populated or popular areas (although it can be the case anywhere). So what's the big deal with having greater restrictions on harvest of wild trout, especially since there apparently aren't that many people who harvest anyway?

The end result is that in areas where harvest isn't a factor (where populations are limited by habitat, and there isn't much harvest), harvest restrictions won't increase the trout population, but they won't "infringe" on many harvesters either. On streams where harvest is affecting the populations, restrictions will obviously improve the populations and the fishing, but probably will "infringe" only on a few harvesters.

Posted on: 2006/12/9 18:40


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

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2006/9/13 12:37
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I'm shocked to see a WCO even took the time to go there. But it does give me some motivation to get no kill regs there. These guys are fishing on private land and there are many landowners over there that don't like to see trout killed.

Posted on: 2006/12/11 11:22


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
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Same old Chaz.

Posted on: 2006/12/13 10:28
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Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
Same old Chaz.


Same old personal attacks. Moderator, I urge you to hit the VAPORIZE button.

Posted on: 2006/12/13 13:47


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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The ability to harvest during the extended season does not turn on whether the section of creek from which the trout is caught is stocked, but, rather, whether it is an Approved Trout Water or "waters downstream of approved trout waters."



58 Pa. Code § 65.26. Extended trout seasons.
(a) General rule. The extended trout season is in effect from the day after Labor Day until the last day of February of the following year on approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters. A creel limit of three trout per day and a minimum size limit of 7 inches applies during this season.


Posted on: 2006/12/13 14:13
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Peace, Tony


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs
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Joined:
2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
Posts: 7048
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
Same old Chaz.


Same old personal attacks. Moderator, I urge you to hit the VAPORIZE button.


What??

Posted on: 2006/12/13 15:11
_________________
Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6206
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Quote:

Maurice wrote:
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
Same old Chaz.


Same old personal attacks. Moderator, I urge you to hit the VAPORIZE button.


What??


"Same old Chaz" sounds like a personal attack to me. If that's not what was intended, my apologies. But if it isn't a personal attack, then what is it?

By vaporize, I simply meant Delete.

(I'm bipolar )

Posted on: 2006/12/13 20:28


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
Posts: 7048
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:

"Same old Chaz" sounds like a personal attack to me. If that's not what was intended, my apologies. But if it isn't a personal attack, then what is it?

By vaporize, I simply meant Delete.

(I'm bipolar )


No need to apologize Bert, farmer Dave is an old regular from the old, old, old board...the first one. One of the main characters along with Chaz. He was simply poking Chaz in the ribs. When Chaz sees it he would laugh and remember the old days.

Thinking back, We all used to love the antiquated posting scroll whereby each post was logged consecutively and unthreaded. No quoting feature, No topice and only one board. It was a nightmare but we loved it. Kind of like those Cortland CL rods...Now we have the high end graphite message boards and pick apart the details. Just like with the rods.

We are a cantankerous bunch, aren't we?

Maurice

Posted on: 2006/12/13 22:11
_________________
Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


For Troutbert.

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18589
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Maurice has it right.

For the record, I have the utmost respect for Chaz and he should know that. He is in the 99+ percentile when it comes to giving back to the sport in my humble opinion (which by the way is rarely humble), and I appreciate all that he has done and continues to do. Chaz and I may not always agree on everything, but when it comes to wild trout and especially native brook trout, Chaz and I are almost always on the same page.

I can see why you might think I was flaming him. All I was doing is saying hey. I apologize for not including a smiley, but i did a quick response and didn't see the option to insert one. It was my second post, and I haven't learned the new system yet. I should have typed one in anyway. My fault entirely, and you have no need to apologize to me ... yet.

Posted on: 2006/12/14 6:42


Re: Wild Brown Trout and Special Regs

Joined:
2006/9/10 7:44
From Enola, Pa.
Posts: 2312
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Things will pickup now, Big Dave, Farmer Dave etc is back!

Good to have you back...I think

PaulG

Posted on: 2006/12/14 8:06



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