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Wild Brook Trout

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Posted on: 1/1 16:33
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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No mention at all that there is widespread stocking of hatchery trout in native brook trout streams in PA, and that you are allowed to harvest 5 per day.

Posted on: 1/1 17:03


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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troutbert: the 5 fish creel limit was succinctly addressed...

“I think our regulations are adequate. When you look at how many people are harvesting wild trout, there aren’t many,” Arway said. “We just don’t see the kind of exploitation of the resource that once existed with brook trout."

This was clearly documented in the statewide wild trout angler use and harvest survey. Harvest of wild brook trout was only 7 per mile.

Posted on: 1/1 17:58


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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http://gonefishingpa.org/images/fishe ... afm/2006/5x10_19brook.htm

Statewide the average estimated abundance of wild brook trout seven inches and longer, and nine inches and greater in freestone streams, is 34 and 4 trout per mile of stream, respectively (2000 Trout Summit)

Posted on: 1/1 18:21
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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The damage to native brook trout has been done for over 125 years, in that the genetics have been compromised by stocking hatchery brookies over the native populations. It's time to stop stocking over the native populations no matter how few streams this occurs in.

Posted on: 1/3 18:58
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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I'm still trying to figure how the regulations are adequate when anglers harvest an estimated 7 legal size brook trout permile and there is an estimated 4 legal size brookies per mile on freestone streams.

-3 trout per mile?

Unless I'm reading that wrong and it's 34 trout per mile @ 7 inches and nine inches or longer @ 4 per mile.

According to the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission there are approximately 1,524 wild brook trout stream sections (5,044 miles) across Pennsylvania (PFBC 2009).

Even then....
1/8th the total estimated legal size population harvested each year in over 5000 miles of stream?
35,000 legal size brook trout a year harvested?
Wow

Posted on: 1/3 19:50
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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2007/6/19 21:49
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Limit size is 7", and there are 34 legal fish per mile, which nets 27 fish legal fish left per mile. Your stat of four is for fish 9" or larger.

I'm curious how those stats have varied (if at all) since 2000, in terms of legal fish per mile. Have they increased on average, remained the same, or declined?

Posted on: 1/3 19:54


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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Thanks sal.

Posted on: 1/3 19:58
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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Since the 2000 trout summit:

595,000 legal size brookies made into sardines
I wonder why we don't have more "movers" (like in the article) that get larger

Posted on: 1/3 20:04
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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They are the 7 per mile that are harvested .

Posted on: 1/3 20:18


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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Obviously not.
But following recent telemetry studies, only a percentage of the larger adult fish move and they are typically 9 inches or greater.
Only 4 a mile that size so I'm sure we hurt ourselves from ever seeing a river with good fishable numbers of them when 7 fish 7" or larger is harvested.
All conjecture and estimates of course.

By 2034....

1,195,000 estimated legal size brookies harvested.
I find that a rather staggering number.

Posted on: 1/3 20:55
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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The issue of widespread stocking over native brook trout (and wild trout in general) was not mentioned at the Wild Trout Summit.

It was the "elephant in the room" there.

And it was the "elephant in the room" in this article too.

Any discussion or article about native brook trout that does not include this issue has a severe credibility problem.

If you are going to have a serious discussion about a topic, you have to include the important issues.

If you just omit obviously important ones, because they are difficult to deal with, you're killing your credibility.


Posted on: 1/3 21:48


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
Obviously not.
But following recent telemetry studies, only a percentage of the larger adult fish move and they are typically 9 inches or greater.
Only 4 a mile that size so I'm sure we hurt ourselves from ever seeing a river with good fishable numbers of them when 7 fish 7" or larger is harvested.
All conjecture and estimates of course.

By 2034....

1,195,000 estimated legal size brookies harvested.
I find that a rather staggering number.



It is, but I'd argue it is somewhat meaningless and somewhat suspect. I don't know what methodology the state used to determine their numbers, both for their average number of legal brookies and 9"+ brookies per mile, and for their harvest rate of 7 fish per mile, and finally, what the total miles of stream that support those numbers. As with any study or formula, a small sample size is extrapolated to create an "average" across a whole state. Small errors upon small errors in formulas or study biases, multiplied by 34 years can yield a big error in the final number. Just look at the wide variance in legal fish in the 2006 Biologist Report (Jeans, Kistler, and Wolf Swamp Run). Sampling in three or four years swung as much as 90 legal fish per mile (Kistler) and Jeans yoyoed from 47 to 5 to 43 to 11. Ten samples of fish from approximately 300m stream lengths in three or four different years yields a lot of noise that is mirrored across all the other streams sampled in the state.

This paper, about the economic impact of wild trout angling lists an abundance of legal size wild brook trout at 75.5/mile for the 76 streams studied. And if you read it closely, you can see how sampling error (and even angler answer bias) might skew the results.

For instance, if you're Joe (or Josephine) Angler, and a PFBC-looking creel clerk asks you this question:

"How often do you harvest (keep) legal size trout when fishing this water?"

How would you respond? I know how I respond when an angler asks me how many I caught (a few, whether I've caught 1 or 100). People sometimes respond to questions in way that they think the questioner wants to hear. Or they want to build up their angler machismo and thump their chests and agree that they always harvest their fish.

The clerks apparently happened on at least one law breaker too:

"Harvested brook trout ranged from 6.5 to 10.25 inches in length.."

Going back to the 34 legal fish/mile, I find it hard to believe that 20.5% of the legal wild brookies in PA are harvested. I'll bet that less than 20.5% of the legal wild brookies in PA are even caught, let alone harvested.. I can't remember the last time I've even saw a wild brookie creeled or on a stringer.

Anyway, my whole point is to not get too up in arms about a number derived by multiplying a couple of calculated numbers together. It's a number based on a model that probably has a number of flaws, over-representing some things, under-representing others and probably completely missing some important elements.

Posted on: 1/3 22:36


Re: Wild Brook Trout

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Agreed.

That's why I made the entire ridiculous post.
If the PFBC is going to throw out conjecture and then deem it as accurate information as to why current regulations are adequate, then I suppose taking that same information and showing them how it's not is fair game?

Posted on: 1/3 23:43
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Re: Wild Brook Trout

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troutbert, that issue was succinctly addressed per the info below in the presentation on the history of wild trout management in Pa.

From the Policy for the Conservation and Management of Fisheries Resources: Stock fish where wild populations are inadequate to sustain fisheries at desired levels.
The policy does not say "do not stock over wild trout."

Back to the present, I would add that when stocked trout sections are discovered through surveys to support Class A equivalent biomasses, those of which I am aware around the state continue to be removed from the stocking program. This is not just some random activity; potential Class A waters, stocked and unstocked, are specifically sought for identification and proper classification during the field season. In addition, no Class B waters found may be ADDED to the stocking program.

Posted on: 1/4 4:27

Edited by Mike on 2018/1/4 4:49:03
Edited by Mike on 2018/1/4 4:54:29



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