VFTU Trout Show -what do we stand for?

[TDB]

Okay, I don't have a bunch of time today to write everything that is on my mind, but i was a little disturbed last night at the Valley forge TU Trout Show.

The speaker was the owner of a 4,000 private property in the poconos who, to my knowledge, guides fly fishing on several miles of privitized wild trout streams. There are more disturbing details about this, but that is the big one.

Does TU recognize these "Donny Beaver-like" people who are posting properties and excluding people who can't pay $300 for a 1/2 day?

I am not pleased that the local TU thinks it is right that this dude does this and they invite him to speak at a charity event and praise him as though he is a trout fishing savior.

What do other people think about this? It bothers me that this goes on, but i've learned to live with that - but i'll be dam*ed if i'm going to donate $ to an organization that condones it....?

 

[JackM]

I would have expressed these views to the event organizers as well. Based upon their response, I might shift my allegiance to an organization that more closely represents my thinking.

 

[vcregular]

I tend to agree with your assessment. When I first saw the notice I was kinda surprised with the choice of the speaker, and with the potential neg feedback that might come from such a choice.

However, this group has done so much for close to 30 years, that I will not hold one event against them. No way.

From what I did see the event was well attended, but I did not stick around for the speaker...instead just dropped some cash on a handful of raffle tickets, said hello to some of the chapter leaders, then had to scoot.

 

[timmyt]

Who exactly was the speaker and what is the organization he represents?

 

[Giventoflyfish]

I gotta be honest, I did not realize it was private lands that they guided on until I went to their booth. Saw the prices and yes, I was thinking the same thing. I agree with the other person that posted, they have done a lot of good things, so I won't let that leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Personally, I rather hear about the good things that are being done for conservation and local fishing than to see how much fun he had fishing around the world. If I wanted to see that, I would have stayed home and put on the Outdoors HD channel.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Padraic]

A bit of background... A while back... a guess it's getting to be quite a while back... Donny Beaver offered TU chapters some gift certificates to raffle off at their fundraisers. I was president of DFTU at the time and refused the offer, know as I did, that PATU was gearing up to be a part of the suit to open the Little J. I didn't feel it was right to a) promote an organization closing what I thought was public waters b) take a gift from someone my organization was about to sue.

That said... lodges with private water are not the same thing as SRC. SRC was closing what should be open water. A resource that belongs to the commonwealth.

If this other organization is buying/leasing access to non-navigable water, they aren't doing anything illegal. You may not LIKE what they are doing, but they aren't doing anything "wrong". And by extension, your chapter isn't doing anything "wrong" by including a lodge in your fundraiser. The same year, I refused the offer from Donny Beaver, I accepted others from guides and such. I don't recall if any of them were "lodges" or if they had private water. I don't think they did, as we are a small potatoes chapter and don't get the high end of the fly fishing industry... but... I would have accepted them.

Now if that stand offended any of my members, I would hope they'd come to me and complain. If you just quit, you aren't going to changed anything. No one will know why you quit and so they'll just keep doing the same things over and over.

 

[TDB]

I plan to be heard. It is disappointing to see other influential TU leaders not seeing what is wrong with this... Oh well. This is the same as Beaver in my mind. He wasn't doing anything "illegal" either. Now, if he tries to exclude people since the ruling I guess that would be illegal. What he has been doing for years is the same as any of these lodges that privatize water of the commonwealth. It is NOT right!

 

[Padraic]

TDB wrote:
I plan to be heard. It is disappointing to see other influential TU leaders not seeing what is wrong with this... Oh well. This is the same as Beaver in my mind. He wasn't doing anything "illegal" either. Now, if he tries to exclude people since the ruling I guess that would be illegal. What he has been doing for years is the same as any of these lodges that privatize water of the commonwealth. It is NOT right!

If you can get a court order to open up Spruce Creek, than I will agree with you. Otherwise, objectively, what Donny Beaver was doing is very different what than is going on with lodges on non-navigable waters. Non-navigable waters are not considered public resources.

You may feel that any stream anywhere should be open to your use. You're free to feel that way, but it's simply not so.

Meanwhile, TU has to solicit prizes to auction off. We do this by getting prizes donated from businesses. Just about any business in the world can be criticised on some level. Orvis has a real estate division that sells land to individuals looking for riparian properties... no doubt most of those get posted. Rod manufacturers like Orvis, SAGE and Winston have oursourced good manufacturing jobs to Asia. Fly companies like Umpaqua also outsource labor and undercut local tyers. and so on...

If you want to stop TU's involvement with these companies, there's really only one way. Donate so much money, they don't need to hold a banquet. Trust me, the idea would be more welcome than you could ever imagine!

I am not a member of VFTU and can't speak for it. Perhaps your leadership will be more understanding. But I don't see where a chapter has the leeway to walk away from donations.

 

[afishinado]

Pad wrote: “…..objectively, what Donny Beaver was doing is very different what than is going on with lodges on non-navigable waters. Non-navigable waters are not considered public resources.

You may feel that any stream anywhere should be open to your use. You're free to feel that way, but it's simply not so…..”




I don’t feel that every stream should be open to the public because I believe in the rights of private ownership. I own a fairly large tract of land in the mountains staunchly maintain my right to allow or limit access to it. I have no problem with the owner of the property posted or limiting access to their property, but the most distasteful thing to me is exploiting our streams for a buck - the pay to play mentality. Many complain about the “Evil Empire” (the SRC) and yet walk into many fly shops that buy or lease prime areas of streams and close them to the public, and then charge to guide on these private waters.

I believe fishing in this country will change for the worse in the near future. The trend seems to be more toward the way fishing is in Europe where the waters are privately owned and closed to the fishing public. Other than owning the land, becoming a member of an exclusive fishing club is one of the few ways to gain access to the best streams and rivers. This is happening to us right now in this country, both east and west.

Maybe our friend Wayne from this board can enlighten us to how fishing is in the UK. Wayne has said he has most experience with catching carp (rough fish as they say) back home, but hadn’t had much of an opportunity to fish for trout, even though the UK has many great trout streams and rivers.

I know that “free enterprise” is the American way, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. Some say the fly fishing is an elitest sport right now - you aint seen nothing yet. I really have no real solution, except for supporting the State in using raising and using more funds for public access. I'm just stating the situation as I see it.

 

[AndyP]

Some of you know that I am a member of Valley Forge TU and I would like to comment from a personal perspective. For several years I coordinated the Guest speaker for the Trout Show and I would have to say that every single one of the gentleman that I scheduled had a level of commercialism to their reume. This years speakers are authors, TV show producers, guidres, event speakers and yes managers of a private fishing club. That being said I don't know their position on public access. I did not hear their presentation as I was helping with other aspects of the fundraiser.
All in all I feel that the thousand and tens of thousand of hours of work that VFTU has done to ensure a wild trout fishery in SE PA should be the real discussion. This organization needs all the help it can get. Several years back we spent over $100,000 in legal and enviromental consulting fees to fight to keep the stormwater regulations intact to protect Valley Creek. Are we a foolproof organization that never screw up? No. Did we screw up with this years guest speaker? I don't think so. Will we screw up the next time Valley Creek is threatened and we are called on to stand up and fight for it? I hope not! I have a 6 month old son and nothing would be cooler than for him to catch a wild brown trout out of Valley Creek in the next few years.
These thoughts are my own, not VFTU's and if you want to contact me my e-mail is awpancoast@hotmail.com

 

[Padraic]

AndyP

"All in all I feel that the thousand and tens of thousand of hours of work that VFTU has done to ensure a wild trout fishery in SE PA should be the real discussion."

Amen, sorry if I distracted from that. The chapter has done some great work and you deserve kudos not kibitzing.

 

[afishinado]

I would like to say that my last post was in no way a criticism of VFTU and all the great work they have done and will continue to do for the conservation and rehabilitation of coldwater streams in SEPA.

The purpose of my last post was just to state the facts as I see them with respect to the continued and escalating problem of losing access to our streams through commercialization.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I expect TU to be a coldwater conservation organization first and foremost. I look elsewhere (CAP, PFBC,WPC) for organizations that have river access as a top priority.

Something that is being valued as a wild trout fishery for profit is better than the wild trout fishery not being valued at all. I'd rather it be valued as a public resource, but that will take more public monies than are available.

 

[wetnet]

So I guess the rich do keep getting richer all the way around. The public gets stockies and the people who can afford it, get to fish for native wild trout. Pretty sad scene but looking how things are progressing the first deer your child shoots may have to be on a preserve as well. I went hunting on private land the only person with permission and was run over by people from Florida that had no right to be there. They drove right in front of my boy and when I confronted them they just kept on walking. I guess you do need to pick your battles but it seems like we're losing ground really fast.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Well, maybe we should all consider buying less crap and donating more because it takes a whole lot of complaining and publicity to buy and/or preserve public access as the DB/Little J case has shown. Preserving habitat and access isn't going to happen on its own.

We could also look at someplace like Quebec which has a long history of taking fishing land from owners by the governement and issuing beats by public drawing but then we probably would complain about the lack of property rights, high taxes, and crowded, overfished rivers.

We do have a lot of public land to hunt and fish on compared to other parts of the world and even compared to other states. Try finding some public land to hunt in Texas. Don't let the fact that you can't fish a particular section of a particular river stop you from enjoying the river before you.

 

[wetnet]

I'm not sure my post made the point it was meant to but I'm in agreement.

I guess for me it's like this. I can't tell you how much I apppreciate it when a farmer lets us fish through their property to catch (and release) a few native brookies. I also am saddened when the same farmer doesn't grant us permission again because someone has given themselves permission to do the same and has left a mess. Public acess is a double-edged sword and it comes at a cost the same as when someone who respects our resources buys land and carefully manages it. I don't waste my money on crap. I donate to TU and I do what I can to promote youth programs to support trout habitat.

I also have hunted both public and private land and like I said it isn't fair that someone can hunt across private property and there really isn't much recourse. Call a Game warden. I also hunt bird dogs and have hunted youth hunts on state game lands and have been burnt by pellets raining down on me. It's scarey and I have trained dogs and responsible boys.

Overall what I see is less and less land to fish and hunt and more and more dollars if you want to do it. I hope I'm wrong.

On the up side me and my guys still fish and we still hunt. We respect the previledge.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Now, I agree with that 100%. Keeping land owners as our allies by respecting them, their property rights, and their land is the foundation of preserving access and promoting conservation and the reason TU national has clarified its stance recently. Taking an advisarial approach is likely to do more harm than good. Having an ax to grind may make us feel better but will do us little practical good.

That being said I hope TU, nationally and locally, will give highest priority to projects that help with BOTH conservation AND access. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Fredrick]

Well if anyone was there I was the younger looking guy who did pretty darn good at the raffel table HEHE I walked off with this really nice fly tying station and a 3 wt orvis rod HEHE. But as everyone knows TU does not fight for fishing access :-o And it sucked that VFTU had to limit themselves to a speaker who promotes private water . But the purpose of the event is a FUND RAISER so if this jerkoff speaker raised good money for VFTU than I'm all for it .....

 

[JustFish]

VFTU needs to raise money! Period! I live ten minutes from Valley and feel fortunate that it is being kept alive. Fished West Valley yesterday. Had a blast. I don't like the hoyty toyty 20,000 dollar a year fishing clubs either. I think privitization of waters is the PFBC's fight.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class supports them both.

 

[troutbert]

Who was this speaker? What was his name?

VFTU has worked very hard to try to conserve Valley Creek and others in the area. If they made a minor mistake in choice of banquet speakers, maybe say something to the leaders. But you have to look at the big picture and not blow things out of proportion.

I think a statement like "What do we stand for" is blowing things out of proportion. It's kind of insulting towards the TU volunteers.

When it comes to TU, always remember, these are VOLUNTEERS. If you are saying you could do a better job, step in there and volunteer.