TU's stance on stream access?????????

[JustFish]

I was reading the Little Lehigh fly shop's stream access page this morning and discovered which isn't new news but new for me that they have appointed an Ad-Hoc committee to figure out if they should involve themselves in stream access issues. I was about to join VFTU, but will not give them any money unless they choose a side.

I also read that LEFTY KREIGH is a charter member to THE SPRING RIDGE CLUB. Which means I won't buy any of his books or a TFO rod unless he denounces the club. LLHFS is trying to organize an organization to combat people like THE SPRING RIDGE CLUB.


Here is the link. Tell me what you guys think. At the end of the page there is an article that was in the New York Times about The Spring Ridge Club and how their members want more land throughout the USA.

http://www.littlelehighflyshop.com/StreamAccess.html

 

[JackM]

I think it would be a shame to deprive your local TU of your resources and volunteer time because the national organization is torn between the right position and the wrong one because of the possibility of angering some of its big-money supporters.

 

[jayL]

I agree with Jack.

I think that the best way to shift TU's opinions on access may be to add your voice to the mix. If you feel that they aren't hearing you after a while, maybe it would be time to move on, but as of now, TU is our best representative.

 

[Padraic]

The best tool local TU chapters have to ensure access is the Adopt a Stream Program from the FBC. There are a bunch of benefits to the landowner (grant money, expert assistance, etc) to sign into the program. And there is a 5 or 10 year easement requiring public access after the project.

I'm sure all the TU chapters in the state use it whenever possible.

 

[JustFish]

JackM wrote:
I think it would be a shame to deprive your local TU of your resources and volunteer time because the national organization is torn between the right position and the wrong one because of the possibility of angering some of its big-money supporters.

I agree with you too. However, I am torn as well. I know that the chapters are full of great contributing fishermen that just want to enhance their local streams and do good. But if the organization as a whole would choose not to get involved with stream access then I would want to be a part of sometihng else. Like what Rod of LLHFS is doing. I know a lot of you guys are TU members and it is a good thing! But what is their name, Trout Unlimited, right?? Well if they decide to not get involved with stream access then I guess the Trout will be Limited.

My beef isn't with the guys in the foxhole, it's with the guys pushin pencils. And if they don't want to anger their big-money supporters I guess I'll start robbing banks so I can afford THE SPRING RIDGE CLUB for 75,000 dollars a year.

The ad-hoc committee is giving their recomendation on AUG. 15th and if they sway to be involved in stream access then I will donate at least 100 bucks to VFTU. That's my word!

 

[JustFish]

I know I would hate to have to explain to my son or daughter that we can't fish above the wire b/c the membership to fish there is Daddy's whole salary in a year.

 

[JackM]

You could let your membership lapse to deprive National of any of your funds and still remain involved as a volunteer. I don't think local chapters turn away volunteers for lack of a membership card.

 

[JustFish]

JackM wrote:
You could let your membership lapse to deprive National of any of your funds and still remain involved as a volunteer. I don't think local chapters turn away volunteers for lack of a membership card.

That is a reasonable suggestion. The stream work shouldn't have to suffer. Furthermore, I just contacted Rod at LLHFS and am going to be contacted when the next meeting will be held. Which I will be in attendance. This is something I feel strongly about and I am going to get involved.

 

[Padraic]

Justfish,

As a member of TU, I would rather the focus remain on conservation rather than legal fights. I think TU gets a lot of mileage out of it's moderate, cooperative stance. A hardline stance and a bunch of legal disputes would shift focus and resources away from conservation. Rather than being granted access to work on major projects like the Kettle Creek remediation, they would have to sue first. What happens if they lose? How much conservation could they afford to do after a big lawsuit to gain access? How many projects would they be able to do if they all involved suing for access? Not only that, but I think recruiting would suffer as people's perception of TU would shift from a sportsman's environmental organization to a political/legal group. I know I don't think I would have a very good opinion of a group that attacks private property rights.

 

[JustFish]

Pad,

I see what your saying and agree. But where does one start? What if I started buying up land around Valley Creek and started feeding the Browns dog food and kicked off everyone that had made that stream what it is today and only let the Upper Class enjoy it for $4,000 a day. My queastion is how do we combat that? I also heard but don't know for a fact that now the Meck's are buying up land in the Catskills along with Donny Beaver. I am not disagreeing with you at all. But who can make that kind of fight?

Another sad thing is that a lot of these people writing articles and books who we think are legends to the sport are just raping it. I couldn't believe Lefty Kreigh is a member of the Spring Ridge Club. I am happy I never bought anything he endorses b/c now he makes me sick.

If we can't access how can we conserve?

 

[tabasco_joe]

I think at the local level the TU chapters understand that stream access is important and conservation projects go hand in hand with access. Especially on small streams.

At one time Donny Beaver published a list of members. I was surprised by the big names from the fly fishing community. Not sure if he puts that out now that he is loosing on the PR front. As I understand it he gave them free or reduced membership to hype the club. I'm just amazed someone pays that kind of money to catch over sized freaks.

 

[Padraic]

Justfish,

I think we fight people buying up land by supporting organizations like the Western Pennsylvania Conservatory or an organization like it. They take donations of land and either preserve it or sell it to get more ecologically sensitive areas (as per the donor). Some people don't like everything about these organizations but they are one answer. Another is express support for the DEP and FBC for taking the leadership in the success lawsuit opening access to the SRC controlled portion of the Little J. Write your legislator and tell them that you want to see access rights enforced and clarified in future lawsuits if needed, and that these organizations should have sufficient funding to pursue them if needed.

Throwing it at TU seems like an impulsive reaction. It suits neither the problem nor the organization you are pressuring.

 

[RLeeP]

> think we fight people buying up land by supporting organizations like the Western Pennsylvania Conservatory or an organization like it. They take donations of land and either preserve it or sell it to get more ecologically sensitive areas (as per the donor). Some people don't like everything about these organizations but they are one answer. Another is express support for the DEP and FBC for taking the leadership in the success lawsuit opening access to the SRC controlled portion of the Little J. Write your legislator and tell them that you want to see access rights enforced and clarified in future lawsuits if needed, and that these organizations should have sufficient funding to pursue them if needed.

Throwing it at TU seems like an impulsive reaction. It suits neither the problem nor the organization you are pressuring.>

That's just excellent.. I don't believe it could be said any better.

Just one other thing:. It's helpful to remember that in TU, the tail basically wags the dog. Even if TU's policy is not to become involved in access issues, If a large chapter or even council (or even a smaller one that is relatively flush or self sufficient) wants to take on an access issue, National isn't going to try very hard to stop them. They may grumble and chide, etc. But they won't force them to stop. Especially a large or relatively flush chapter.

It's money that matters.

This is my view at least, based upon observed history...

 

[afishinado]

JustFish: “What if I started buying up land around Valley Creek and started feeding the Browns dog food…”

Those fish would reject that just like they do our flies.





Pad’s response and suggestions are spot on, I agree 100%. Jack’s suggestion of volunteering w/o membership is a great compromise.

Check out VFTU, you will be pleased, if not amazed at what they have accomplished in SE PA, and you will also be impressed by what they plan to do in the future. Donate your dollars and time to the local TU and let the national TU fend for themselves if that’s your desire.

 

[TDB]

I have to say it - VFTU invited a "Donny Beaver-like" pr*ck to their trout show, let him address the membership like a god and gave him a forum and booth to sell his privatized guiding on "stolen water"...

This left a bad taste in my mouth. I know that a lot of groups do a lot of good and I appreciate that and even fund much it, but now I have to look a little closer b4 I pull out the check book.

 

[pete41]

As a lifemember of the NRA I use to hear some really avid hunters and other gun-owners bashing the NRA and its policies.Why they wouldn't support it or donate money.
Just about every week we would get an appeal for a special donation to fight the endless legal battles that allowed the ones bashing the NRA to keep hunting and keep their guns to do so.
You may not like all of TU's policies but if you want freedom to fish PA's streams you better support them because you will lose the battle if you don't.
Kreh

 

[rrt]

1. I think Padraic and RLeeP have responded thoughtfully and intelligently. I wish I thought that clearly.
2. Lefty Kreh's name was on the list I saw, and though I am truly disappointed that he lent his name to the evil empire's list, I do not want to criticize a man who was in the Battle of the Bulge in WW II. I am not willing to put down a man who was willing to put his life on the line in battle. However, having said that, I will not buy anything he endorses or anything from TCO b/c of their close association.
3. In addition, Joe Humphreys' and the Becks' names were also on the roster. I cannot see giving them any respect. In fact, people in the know have informed me that the Becks gained possession of water and then sold it to the evil empire (aka SRC). Occasionally I write to one of the ff mags and relate my displeasure with its publishing photos by the Becks b/c of their association with the evil empire, but it does no good and really doesn't even make me feel any better. Humphreys and the Becks should be ashamed of themselves. As for Meck(s) being in cahoots with the evil empire, I kind of doubt it. At one time Charles R. Meck's name was on the list, but according to several people, Meck forced the evil emperor to remove his name or he--Meck-- would sue the evil empire. I am not sure this is true, but the sources were people who knew Meck. And, this is ironic that I am defending Meck b/c of the way I feel about him for a variety of other things. I am no Charles Meck fan. 4. The PFBC and PATU have formed a Stream Access Committee. It has been meeting; let's hope it can figure out how to retain access. We need to support this group when it does try to take some action.
5. I have written this previously on this board and elsewhere: Don (now 'Donny') Beaver was once a fine, generous person. That avarice has taken control of him is a real shame. He and his minions, especially one known in the Yellow Creek Valley as 'Forked Tongue,' represent the worst in the outdoor world.
--Sorry so long.

 

[vcregular]

TDB...we crossed this bridge already. I think what they've (VFTU) done, trumps one presentation at a trout show. Besides, what water did this 'beaver-like' steal? Mud Run? That thing has been private long before I started fly fishing. It was never navigable, nor would one ever try. That VFTU horse has been beat. Private fishing clubs, are here to stay, but take public water, and make it private is a different story. Which is what the Beav did.

I also find it hard to believe Charlie Meck is buying land for the purpose of pimping it for a private fishing. Been wrong before tho.

 

[Fishidiot]

I'm with Pad on this one. As for the pros who are members of SRC or otherwise associate with this organization (including the late E. Schweibert) I suppose the face time with wealthy folks and opportunities to get published are irresistable and maybe necessary. And I'm sure that many of these pros were given free memberships as a promotional scheme and perhaps they figured that showing up and doing demos at SRC events could be construed as separate from some of the tactics and legal problems of the organization (debatable). I'm not a professional fly fisherman so perhaps I don't understand some of the pressures.

 

[AndyP]

JustFish, TDB and everyone else in Southeastern Pa- I am a VFTU member and I would welcome you guys to come to a meeting starting in Sept. to learn more about the group. You can leave your checkbooks at home just come and enjoy the people and our guest speakers. As for stream access one of our former members who recently passed away, Carl Dusinberrie, dedicated himself to obtaining easements along Valley and its tribs along with other Conservation groups. So whether it is "official policy" or not we are always trying to ensure access as well as preserving as much of a buffer streamside as we can. Hope to see you in fall. Check out VFTU.org

Andy