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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/10/21 10:32
From Yardley, PA
Posts: 48
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For what it's worth, while it's been a while since I've actively participated, I'm still a very frequent browser. When I sit down to tie a few, I start by browsing the threads.

Yesterday, when I was tired of "wet-wading" in my leaky waders, I browsed the threads.

When I'm thinking about my cousin in Hershey, and wondering what he might be hooking into back there, I browse the threads.

When I'm dreaming of the next time I can get up to the Grand Canyon, I browse the threads.

When I'm just bored out of my mind. I browse the threads.

Today, while browsing, I saw a stream report by salvelinusfontinalis. Needless to say, it was thorough and the subject was a stream back in my old stomping grounds that I never heard of. So, I printed it out, with his directions and threw it on my tying table. Eventually it will get folded into my "PA
Trout Streams and their Hatches", along with all of the other tidbits I throw in there. Then, someday I'll be going back home to visit family and take a convenient detour and check out this stream.

I would like to think that most of us are similar. That we are not lurking for "hot spots" and clogging up good streams. That we are just curious and looking for an occasional change of scenery. That may be naive and far from reality, but it's how I choose to go through life.

Thank you Sal!!!!!!!!! Keep it up.

Hey, at least I'm one more post closer now to being part of the exclusive, "For Your Eyes Only Club".

D

Posted on: 2008/5/27 8:50


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/10/2 10:08
From Westmoreland County (near fairgrounds)
Posts: 3781
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I think fly fishing is a tough sport to learn, especially if you don't have someone experienced to mentor you. I think the stream reports can a be a nice tool for someone trying to learn the sport. I think we should continue to allow open access to the stream reports as a public service in order to promote the sport of fly fishing.

Would the guys who don't post stream reports now really post more if we restrict access to the stream reports, or are they just saying they would to increase access restrictions?

Posted on: 2008/5/27 10:54
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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6496
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no problem D. I agree with you on the change of scenery thing. You guys have seen and also heard me say that the wild trout fishing in PA is great but one has to explore to find big and remote wild fish. The main reason I explore is to find new scenery or new "situations". Differnt lies the trout will take or differnt flies to rise too. From the tannic stain red brookie waters of nepa, down to the central and scpa limestoners and who can forget the northwestern steelhead runs, We all have a unique pieces of water and differnt experiences. Sharing them and the wealth of knowledge we all have can be as valuable as time on the stream. I do not wish to cut off beginners or even honest souls looking for the enjoyment of the sport. As i said a simple pm from someone on this board an i will always try my best to help out. If we are looking for historic data and wish to included fragile wild trout enviroments, then we must do the number of "X" posts. If not then I say leave it the same. Ill just post a X stream report in the general forum with pics and anyone wishing to know the location can always pm me. As far as stocked streams or stocked streams with wild trout....i have no fear in posting thier name and if someone has a problem with it......tough i never lose sleep over that

Posted on: 2008/5/27 11:09
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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?
Webmaster
Joined:
2006/9/8 9:35
Posts: 4570
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I have been watching, reading, thinking, and looking more into this topic. I wanted to hear from a variety of people.

No one should be judged in any way for posting a Stream Report. As long as it is a legitimate fly fishing report we should feel free to post, we can leave the elitism for the country club. Some reports are going to be heavy on the fish count and light on the stream conditions, but just understand that is what happens. People will often post what they want to say and not always what we want to hear.

Jack and the other moderators always have permission to remove attacks and should be heavy handed if a report is being jumped.

The site at one time did not permit anyone to reply to stream reports. This cut down on the dialog and paranoia based on the fact that no one can say much about a post. This is an option too!

I have checked and at this time I cannot control access to topics by number of posts. I can set the topic to be seen by only registered, which would be a change. If I do this I am sure we will get a lot more users on the site.

Thoughts welcome.

Posted on: 2008/5/27 13:02


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/11/20 10:08
Posts: 1211
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I was going to stay out of this b/c I am passionately on the other side of and I think you are just kidding yourselves. Anyhow, 2 evening ago, I was putting my hippers on when a big SUV pulled in behind me. Two young flyfishers adorned in the modern fly-fisherman's uniform of logo cap, breathable raincoat, etc. jumped out, and they quickly hustled to the section of creek I planned to fish. I didn't know them. Being 58 and smaller than either of them, I cursed them and left for another section of creek. (I might've flattened their tires, but they would have eventually found my truck at some point.) You guys all know how they found out about the creek: through k/t books or articles or from the Internet. I know you guys were telling yourselves that posting doesn't hurt things, but here is another example of what happens. Please don't keep fooling yourselves. (Also, please notice how nice and polite I am in this post.)

Posted on: 2008/5/29 8:48


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?
Moderator
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2006/9/13 12:42
From Altoona, PA
Posts: 2259
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rrt, How was the stream "hurt"? The section you wanted to fish was fished by someone else before you could get to it, but is that an example of damage to the stream? Or is it an example of someone having to find a way to be more flexible?

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you. It feels rotten when it happens. But it happen(ed) to me all the time in the Harrisburg area where the population of anglers is high and even the small streams are well known.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 8:57
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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22593
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Wow, what a tragedy. Someone else got to fish on your favorite stream. Please. Polite or not, there is nothing endearing about resenting other anglers who are enabled to enjoy fishing on waters you thought you had a claim to-- whether they knew about the stream from word-of-mouth, using a map, reading an article in Flyfisherman magazine, or reading a stream report on the internet.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 9:26
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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/9/16 10:36
Posts: 6962
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Well if the stream is rrts favorite, which is a small stream and rrt was parked by his desired location and these guys jumped his pool, then what? I have fished the Little J for over 30 years and this has never happened to me. Of course I fish the lower end almost exclusively and it is big water down here, but I have never even been crowded, even when catching a ton of fish. I do remember a a day though, I believe during a caddis hatch, a guy was hammering the fish and not long after he had almost a complete circle around him of guys who had moved in.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 9:47


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19931
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rrt,

I think you're drawing unnecessary conclusions about these guys based on their gear. That happens all the time around here. I'm practically a bum when it comes to gear, and I try to take the minimalistic approach. However, I do have a FF hat (paff.com, to be exact) and a breathable jacket. What does that mean about me?

If you had arrived ten minutes earlier, those same guys, who could be completely nice and "accomplished" fishermen, would be posting and cursing the guy who was in "their" favorite spot.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 9:54


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:20
Posts: 235
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Thought I'd weigh in and ring the cowbell for myself. Regarding "lurkers", I know quite a few people who look at this site a few times a year to use the stream reports in exactly the way Dave Kile described. They do not post on the board. These guys include avid flyfishers who just aren't into message boards or hanging out on the internet very much. They also include some guys who fish only occasionally, but do not keep fish, etc. In my opinion, if you restrict access to stream reports these are the sorts of anglers you would be excluding, or hampering at least in many cases. I agree with Dave that you would get a lot more registered users, but you might get a lot less traffic overall. Whether that's good or bad depends our your vision (Dave's vision) of who the site is supposed to serve. Is it a club (albeit with free and easy membership available) or is it a public "news" source.

I am a little skeptical about whether the user restriction would deter the kind of lurkers people are supposedly worried about. It strikes me that someone who is motivated to do internet research in the interest of filling his freezer with wild trout (if such a person exists) is going to be willing to register in order to see the Reports.

That also raises the question of who exactly "we" are worried about. Everyone publicly claims that they are only concerned about sharing information with people who would hurt the stream in some way, presumably by littering or overharvest or whatever. RRT's post above is probably closer to the truth. For the most part, I think those who don't post stream reports either dont want more company, period, or have been cowed into not posting by other people who don't want more company, period. If being young and wearing a baseball hat and a breathable rainjacket is enough to make you an "undesirable" new angler on a stream, then that bar is set pretty low.

Ultimately, I think this is a community decision (I am not talking about access rules, which of course is solely Dave's call). What I am referring to is the fact that the posters collectively and over time police the Stream Report behavior, and that standards change. Years ago on this site, Stream Reports were common and encouraged. That has dwindled over time. Over at FFP, the kiss and tell issue has been a huge bone of contention, and my sense is that the community of posters over there has discouraged reporting even more severely - to the point that even a post about Spring Creek in May was deemed kiss and tell by a few. If lots of folks like Jack and JayL feel they've been shouted into not posting, then they can start posting reports again. They will either be shouted back into silence, or we can all "shout down the shouters" as it were. Its messy, but even with register-user restrictions it is probably the realistic way this gets settled in a user-generated content setting.

Ding.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 10:14


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2008/2/18 10:20
Posts: 1266
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I think registered logged in users veiwing the stream reports would be a good idea.

I fish a stream in SE PA almost everday after work b/c it is so close to my work and this year they put in a boat load of breeders in. Actually, they did that in a bunch of streams down here. I was seeing license plates from Jersey to Deleware to Virginia. When talking to these guys they mostly heard about it from word of mouth and a couple learned about them through"Tout Streams of Pennsylvania". Actually they told me of a couple good streams on their home stretch, how to get there, where to park, etc.....

I fished Erie this spring on Cascade with my friend's dad and his brother. We had a local pull up and tell us this stream wasn't for us and that we should go fish the miles b/c that is where we belonged. PA fishing license is for the Whole state of PA not just the stream behind your house. I can't stand rude people who think they own a stream b/c they live down the road a piece.

I know I will go fish a stream regardless of what's being caught. I only look for water levels anyway.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 10:50


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

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2006/11/20 10:08
Posts: 1211
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Well, to answer a couple questions. (1) The stream itself was not hurt, if the two rude young flyfishers did not kill the trout they caught. If they killed fish, then they are harming the fishery. Anyhow, the evening's fishing experience for me was certainly diminished because of their boorish behavior. That this has happened to some of you does not excuse the rude behavior. There are approximately 13 other miles of water to fish. When I see another car along a small stream, I do not jump out and fish there; instead, I go at least 1/2 mile away, usually farther if I can, to fish, giving them and me elbow room. To attract people like this pair to a stream thru any method of k/t is wrong. (2) Whether you like hearing it or not, k/t has a variety of deleterious effects on streams: it causes overcrowding, resulting in a deterioration of the fishing experience; it results in fish being killed by those who want creelfuls; and in several places I know it has resulted in posting. Now, even though a couple of you were harsh and somewhat condescending with me because I am apparently the only one left on this board willing to oppose k/t, I still won't even say anything personally impolite.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 12:43


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?
Moderator
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22593
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Telling people they are "kidding themselves" about a subject is the equivalent of saying "I know more than you do about the topic." That, in my opinion, is as condescending as anything I or anyone else posted about your view. But the real issue I have with your crusade, besides the fact that I think you grossly over-estimate the effect that "k&t" reports/articles have, is the premise that somehow you have a greater claim to the stream than anyone else. On the other hand, if I only focus on the behavior of another angler "racing" you to a hot-spot on a small stream with plenty of other good water to choose from, I admit this is rude, even from someone who actually was the first human being to discover that the stream was fishable.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 12:55
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Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal.

-- Leo Tolstoy


Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6496
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rrt,

i hear what your saying and im a hardcore avocate for keeping secrets. Ask anyone on this board but i have to ask.....are you for real?

First off was the actions of those young flyfisherman really that rude? I have parked beside other cars in parking areas along roads because that section is where i wanted to fish also. Iam a bushwacking angler but I often have a routine or approach. I will start in an area and work up to where I really wanted to go. I could carless if 20 cars are at my starting point.

If the stream you were fishing is a stocked stream then how is keeping some fish hurting the stream?

If the regulations allow and there are no wild fish. They didnt hurt anything.In fact they helped other native fish species.

If there are wild fish and stocked fish and they kept stockers, they didnt hurt anything provided regulations allow.In fact they helped the stream.

If there are wild fish and they kept a few and regs allow. ......guess what they didnt hurt anything. Though Iam an adovate for returning wild fish and have been fighting tooth and nail to get reg changes in pa, there is usually enough YOY in the stream that they will grow and cant be kept. They might wipe out the stream of legal size "fun to catch fish" but it really doesnt hurt the stream.

Is the fishing experience dimished really? i bet they had a good time.

There is nothing wrong with some K/T. Try to remember someone posting about X stream in Tioga County isnt going to bring anglers from Lebanon County except maybe over a weekend vacation. I think you are worrying a little to much. If its a STOCKED stream should we invest all this worry and belly-aching?

Posted on: 2008/5/29 13:00
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Re: Stream Reports! What Stream Reports?

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19931
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Did they really move that fast to get to the stream?

When I fish, I'll often drive from stretch to stretch in full gear. If I put the waders on at spot 1, and decide to move to spot 2, I'll keep them on for the short drive. Aside from a smelly car, this works well.

If you are in a parking area gearing up, and I come and park in full gear... well, I hate to say it, but I'm going to get to the stream first. I don't think there's anything rude about it. I also gear up quickly, because I want to get fishing. If someone is farting around getting ready, there is a good chance that I'll appear to be rushing to beat them. In actuality, I just get set up quickly.

Also, if I see a single car at a parking area, I think nothing of it. The stream goes two ways, up and down. It's completely unreasonable to expect someone to adhere to a "one per parking area" policy.

I really don't want to sound like a jerk, because you appear to be rightfully sensitive about it, but your sense of ownership over the stream is not going to get you anywhere.

Posted on: 2008/5/29 13:08



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