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Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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The point I was making in my post yesterday was that everyone is up in arms about the DB and the SRC, and rightfully so, yet even more of a threat to our streams and wild areas are the developers.

We should all fight to encourage more quality streams be designated Class A, exceptional value to impede development. With all development there should be green areas and buffer zones around the streams, stricter laws for storm drainage, septic systems, etc. As an example the Valley Forge TU has been and is fighting developers, township planners, the PA Turnpike Commission, and many more to help preserve Valley Creek and other local streams.

We should all support the PFBC with the CAP program, your local TU, the Nature Conservatory, and any other organization that help to preserve and/or lease or purchase wild areas – before it’s too late.

The SRC is small potatoes when compared to, for example, Toll Brothers developers. I just looked it up, Toll Brothers is based in PA and had 5.6 billion dollars of revenue last year. They control over 30,000 homes/units in nearly 400 communities. That’s just one developer. Compare that to the SRC. There’s bigger fish to fry out there, and fry they will, if we don’t wake up and begin to help in the fight.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 7:49


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2007/3/26 22:22
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Squaretail,
I guess they held the tournament at LJ because that's where it was last year. How would I know? I don't believe the fishermen were actually members but they had to donate at least $1,000 per man to CF to participate. As for your smart comment regarding the way I was asked to move.... I wasn't asked to move. Dave explained that the stream would be quite busy because of the event. I could stay and mingle with the others or he'd give me a lift to the lower section so that I could have some peace and less fisherman traffic. That's what he did and I was permitted to walk and fish anywhere I wished. Do I need a specific degree or a decoder ring to twist that into what you read?

Posted on: 2007/6/26 12:12


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Gentlemen, please keep the discussion civil. This does not refer only to the last post. Discussions of this nature have a tendency to become personal and then everyone loses the benefit of gaining insight when the thread has to be shut down or deleted. Thanks for your understanding.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 12:25
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Peace, Tony


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2007/3/26 22:22
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troutbert,
I may be over 40 but I wasn't actually around in the 1800's when the river was being used for commercial transport of goods and materials. My comment "I was actually trespassing" was on the premise that the river wasn't deemed navigable until the ruling was handed down this year. You may be far better versed in what is navigable river or maybe you just have a list of all streams in PA that are navigable. The bottom line is the judge ruled and that's how it will be. Luckily it was in the public's favor... this time.
You claim that I was buying into their story, they are very much against my interests and they buy and post water for their financial gain. Could you please show me documented proof of your claims?
If they had 150 members at 100k per member, they purchase 20 mil in land and structures, add in upkeep of the buildings, land, supplemental fish stocking, feed, taxes, and salaries associated (administrative staff maybe), advertising etc. Where's the profit? I hope you do better calculations when balancing your checkbook. :)
I appreciate your suggestion to Google "Stockholm syndrome".
After reading some of the arguments posted on this thread, I may actually want to Google "Down syndrome". I just want to know what is going to be accomplished by hating SRC and for some of you... crying? afishinado has the right idea. Focus the energy in a positive direction. Without giving the landowner (seller) another option, they will always take the big money from developers or private clubs like SRC. Let's hope we can get a plan up and running before we've lost most class A streams in the state.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 12:45


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.
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From Monessen, PA
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A river doesn't change its status because a Court recognizes its status with a decision. The river is and always was navigable; that is the import of the decision. It never was private property. You may take the position that the status was not immediately apparent and that it was subject to good faith dispute as to whether the streambed was public or private, but it is false to believe that it was private until it was declared public.

Troutbert makes a good point, though I think he overstates it a bit and makes it too personal -- hence my warning. And again I would ask that we steer away from that tendency. The gentleman you encountered was very skillful in finding a win-win solution to the "problem" of you being in an area they wished to have exclusive use of. He found you secluded fishing and found his organization privacy. But I think you are mistaken in believing his actions were solely for your benefit.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 12:57
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Peace, Tony


Fishing Clubs Tax Exempt In Colorado Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2006/9/16 10:36
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Maybe this is why Donny is out there, I am sure he is an expert on evading taxes as much as possible. http://www.couriergoldrush.com/site/t ... =461&dept_id=559185&rfi=6

Posted on: 2007/6/26 13:00


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.
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2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
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Quote:

sight_nymph_17109 wrote:
troutbert,
I may be over 40 but I wasn't actually around in the 1800's when the river was being used for commercial transport of goods and materials. My comment "I was actually trespassing" was on the premise that the river wasn't deemed navigable until the ruling was handed down this year. You may be far better versed in what is navigable river or maybe you just have a list of all streams in PA that are navigable. The bottom line is the judge ruled and that's how it will be. Luckily it was in the public's favor... this time.


Sight,

This is completely FALSE. The issue with the SRC and the Little J. is that SRC was shutting down access to the publicly held water flowing through its property. This waterway was deemed navigable over 100 years ago for the purpose of commerce. Therefor, it is was and continues to be a public waterway. The problem was that DB and the SRC closed down the access to the water by stringing cables across it, putting 4' x 8' signs up at the Spruce Creek bridge, etc. Prior to this the espy stretch being posted was respected by local fishermen as a private landowner wishing to not allow access along the property.

If I remember correctly, it was the F&BC, DCNR, and associated interests who filed a petition to the state to have DB allow access to the riverbed along the Espy stretch. Claiming the river was indeed navigable based on historical documents. He refused and the court case ensued. It was Donnie Beavers burden to prove the river non-navigable...which he could not.

You obviously have made up your mind on this issue so there is no point in discussing it anymore. I think we ALL agree that something needs to be done with the access issues to our blue ribbon streams. Thats a no brainer. But lleasing, purchasing, and closing them to the public is not the answer that satisfies those here. Therefor it is counter to our interests. You seem to believe it is the lesser of two evils. It is still an evil.

I think your proactive point of view is admirable. Even enviable, but when you pair it with an empathy toward the very thing you are trying to avoid, it sits sour in the stomach like three day old milk on a warm day.

Maurice

Posted on: 2007/6/26 13:06
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Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2006/9/16 10:36
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Squaretail: That is easy, they didn't want their money making waters to be used, or the fish educated or their streams trampled, let the poor dopes fish the public water on the Little J, in addition they want to use the Little J for publicity, that would throw small daggers at the judge for taking "their" river for the public.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 13:15


Waste Of Public Funds Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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It is so obvious that the Little J is navigable I don't know why the state even joined the case, look at the many small towns along the river, why were they there. I still say it would be fairly easy to declare Spruce Creek navigable, it drains a highly productive valley, there were forges and lumber to be shipped and crops and they certainly used Spruce to ship those goods East.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 13:22


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2007/3/26 22:22
Posts: 1348
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Maurice,

I didn't know the stream was classified as navigable prior to the huge stink that DB started. I remember fishing there when the Espy's had it. The only rule was no casting in front of the house. I hadn't been up there in years and wasn't even aware of the battle. Last June, after reading the letter from the state (posted on Spruce Creek Outfitters website), I figured it was fair game and I began an all out assault on the fish of that section. Again, the only issue I had last year was when they were holding a wedding in the front yard of the farm house along the river and I came strolling up the river. I'm 99% sure that it was DB that walked beside me and told me "Both feet in the stream or I'll call the police because you're trespassing". I responded with "Beautiful day for a wedding and by the way, I'm inside the high water line. I have a phone right here if you'd like me to call the police I can do that for you. What are the laws on harassment anyhow?" Other then that, everything's been just dandy up there. That section holds some big uns too.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 14:00


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:20
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Like others here I am exceedingly suspicious of anything anyone from SRC says. That said, there was a lot of useful information in this thread and I would not want to discourage anyone from posting similar material in the future by a) twisting or exaggerating what the poster - sight nymph - is saying, or b) accusing him of being dim-witted, which some folks are coming close to doing. I also think that regardless of one's legal rights, it is a polite and appropriate thing to do to move out of the way of a charity fishing event, and I disagree with anybody who implies that doing so is somehow failing to support the courts, or stand up for one's rights, or whatever.

A few thoughts on developers and development. First, I think DB and company are deliberately trying to reposition themselves as allied with non-member anglers against a common enemy. This is smart strategy on their part, but there may actually be some instances where it benefits both "allies". I'd still tread very carefully, though. Second, I think buying up streamside land, as SRC does, doesn't solve - or necessarily even help - the real development problems. For example, most land immediately adjacent to Spring Creek is not heavily developed. You can fish most of it and what buildings there are often older residences. And in places like Bellefonte, the fishing is still good where the banks are built up. The problem there is the digging up and paving of very large parts of the surrounding watershed (and many more people sucking water out of the aquifer). To put it another way, over the long term we may be better off to have some homes near the banks with a decent riparian buffer, sitting in a lightly developed watershed, than have completely undeveloped (and possibly posted) banks in the middle of a watershed that is Pavement City. Whatever the Beav or his successors at SRC are doing against "development" ought to be taken much more seriously when it is focusing on the whole watershed and not just on securing pieces of streamside land that might conveniently serve them as new "beats" in the future.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 14:25


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.

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2007/3/26 22:22
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Will,

Thanks. I knew that a verbal beating would ensue if I posted this. This is a very touchy subject for sure. At the risk of being disowned, I thought it might help bring to light some issues and possibly help inspire new ideas to help find a solution to the problems at hand. Most likely, SRC, PFC and the public aren't going anywhere in the near future. There's gotta be a solution. All can get along and focus on saving the streams. Some will be theirs and some will be ours but at least they will be preserved. You can't fight someone with $$ unless you've got more $$$. I'm willing to donate what I can but there's gotta be a plan in place or it's all for nothing.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 14:39


Re: Spring Ridge Club experience.
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2006/9/13 12:42
From Altoona, PA
Posts: 2259
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At the risk of sounding like I am "pounding" on you, I'd like to disagree.

I think what the public has to do is fight more dilligently for it's rights to public resources. And to advocate for environmental protection.

Otherwise, we'll only have white collar and blue collar fishing clubs, not public fishing. And you'll only have the chance to fish your own beat.

The Little J decision preserves the rights of the public to use public resources. It also defines what a landowner cannot claim as private. I'm not saying it's a win-win, but it makes some murky water clearer.

Posted on: 2007/6/26 15:41
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