Spawning spring stocked PFBC RT seen today

[Mike]

Surveyed what would generally be viewed as a "regular, run-of-the-mill" spring stocked trout stream in Schuylkill Co today. Saw about a half dozen or so brightly colored stocked RT from this past spring ( plus 2 stocked BT collected). Found a large redd at one location and a pair of spawning RT at another. The sampling site was a spring stocking point.

In addition there were about 50 Wild BT up to 17 in long and 20 wild ST up to 11 inches long, all in about 350 meters. Still another stream that has greatly improved with respect to wild trout abundance over four decades, but more specifically within the past ten yrs or so. It used to have a very low density wild trout population, which is why I mentioned the wild trout population in addition to the observation of spawning, stocked RT.

 

[troutbert]

Mike wrote:

In addition there were about 50 Wild BT up to 17 in long and 20 wild ST up to 11 inches long, all in about 350 meters. Still another stream that has greatly improved with respect to wild trout abundance over four decades, but more specifically within the past ten yrs or so. It used to have a very low density wild trout population, which is why I mentioned the wild trout population in addition to the observation of spawning, stocked RT.

What factors caused the increases in the wild trout populations on this stream?

 

[jifigz]

Some people think I'm crazy, but I fully believe that successful reproduction of rainbows is happening across this state more than many realize. I think, just like our wild trout populations are booming right now, RT are starting to spread, successfully reproduce in more streams, and become more common. I know of two streams here in Mifflin County where there is a small wild population unless someone else can give me an explanation as to how I would be catching 4 inch long rainbow trout on nymphs from time to time..

 

[Swattie87]

Mike, check your PM’s.

 

[KenU]

Stocked rainbows spawning successfully in PA streams is not necessarily good news. They have forced brook trout out of streams all the way into the headwaters (the last refuge of the brookie) in the southern Appalachians. Millions are being spent in efforts to restore native southern-strain brookies in the Smokies. This potential problem here in the north could be eliminated by stocking triploid hybrid rainbows. The eggs are readily available; they grow faster than fertile RBs. Western states are already using triploids to help restore and maintain their native trout.

 

[FarmerDave]

jifigz wrote:
Some people think I'm crazy, but I fully believe that successful reproduction of rainbows is happening across this state more than many realize. I think, just like our wild trout populations are booming right now, RT are starting to spread, successfully reproduce in more streams, and become more common. I know of two streams here in Mifflin County where there is a small wild population unless someone else can give me an explanation as to how I would be catching 4 inch long rainbow trout on nymphs from time to time..

I think you are crazy, but not because of that.

It is also my opinion that rainbow trout reproduction is on the rise.

I also agree with KenU, only he isn't crazy.

 

[D-nymph]

Help with the abbreviations?

RT=Rainbow Trout
Wild BT=Brook Trout or Brown Trout?
Wild ST=Salmo Trutta?

 

[HopBack]

Help with the abbreviations?

Close,


RT= Rainbow trout

BT= Brown Trout

ST= Salvenius Trout (brook trout)

 

[moon1284]

I'm not really a fan of wild rainbows unless they get big. WNY has a river system littered with them but anything above 10 inches is big. I think they have shorter life spans then browns which is why they dont grow very big. I dont think we have to worry about wild rt decimating wild st in pa. Rt have been stocked over wild st for a long time in pa, not ideal though.

 

[outsider]

I believe when Mike refers to ST, he calls them Speckled Trout. Yes, a brook trout.

 

[FarmerDave]

moon1284 wrote:
I'm not really a fan of wild rainbows unless they get big. WNY has a river system littered with them but anything above 10 inches is big. I think they have shorter life spans then browns which is why they dont grow very big. I dont think we have to worry about wild rt decimating wild st in pa. Rt have been stocked over wild st for a long time in pa, not ideal though.

Yea, there are relatively few streams in PA that are Class A for RT. I know a couple of them, and even in those I catch all three, and the headwaters seem to be dominated by ST.

But what about climate change? We could end up with a climate like further down the mountain chain.

Oh yes I did! ;-)

 

[foxfire]

I've been catching 3" RT from a very popular put-and-take crick in my neck of the woods for three years now. Been viewing a large hold-over population as well. Perhaps a hardier strain is being developed/stocked??

 

[jifigz]

I have never once encountered a wild RT in any if the mountain brookie streams I've ever fished. I always run into a few wild rogue browns but never a rainbow. The streams I'm referring to here have limestone influence, arise in the valleys, and are brown trout waters. This is a good thing since they don't seem to be competing with the brookies in the mtn streams and are taking up residency along the browns in larger, more fertile waters...at least here, anyway.

ST I have come to understand means speckled trout but I always thought it was Spruce Trout. Here in Mifflin County I've never once heard the term Speckled Trout to refer to a native. It was always Spruce Trout.

 

[FarmerDave]

jifigz wrote:

I've never once heard the term Speckled Trout to refer to a native. It was always Spruce Trout.

You need to get out more. Speckled trout is a common term for Brook trout, unless you love on the coast where it is a completely different fish.

I have only heard them called Spruce trout, twice, including this time. They other may have been you as well.;-)

Right now I mostly agree with what you said about wild RT, but I can show you a couple small freestone streams with them. They still haven't displaced the ST in the headwaters, and I for one hope it stays that way.

I'll send you a PM when I get a chance.

 

[troutbert]

jifigz wrote:
I have never once encountered a wild RT in any if the mountain brookie streams I've ever fished. I always run into a few wild rogue browns but never a rainbow. The streams I'm referring to here have limestone influence, arise in the valleys, and are brown trout waters. This is a good thing since they don't seem to be competing with the brookies in the mtn streams and are taking up residency along the browns in larger, more fertile waters...at least here, anyway.

There are some populations of wild rainbow trout in forested freestone streams in western PA.

So they certainly they can live in that type of stream in PA.

 

[RLeep2]

A long retired Area 2 AFM once told me that the "ST" designation in Commission terminology stood for "stream trout" and was (sort of..) a reference to the brook trout's indigenous status from the days when they were the dominant and/or only trout or charr species in the creeks.

Made sense to me..

So long as they did not imperil the remaining more significant brook trout populations in PA streams, I would not be against more widespread wild RT pops in small to medium freestones. So far as I am concerned, small stream wild RT are the most fun to catch of any trout in that size class.

Or put another way, I'd not hesitate to drive all the way to GSMNP to catch wild bows in the 6-12" class. Brook trout, maybe not so much. This doesn't mean I don't value brookies or their indigenous status. I do.... I just don't think having indigenous status is always necessarily the last or determinative word in a discussion of comparative values or what fish we may or may not favor through management policies.

 

[FarmerDave]

RLeep2 wrote:
A long retired Area 2 AFM once told me that the "ST" designation in Commission terminology stood for "stream trout" and was (sort of..) a reference to the brook trout's indigenous status from the days when they were the dominant and/or only trout or charr species in the creeks.

Made sense to me..

Bob, that is the way I understood it as well from years ago. Learned that about 20 years ago on this site, so it could have been you that said it.

 

[RLeep2]

It very well could have been me, Dave. I only know about 5 things, so I'm often forced to recycle them continuously...

 

[jifigz]

troutbert wrote:

jifigz wrote:
I have never once encountered a wild RT in any if the mountain brookie streams I've ever fished. I always run into a few wild rogue browns but never a rainbow. The streams I'm referring to here have limestone influence, arise in the valleys, and are brown trout waters. This is a good thing since they don't seem to be competing with the brookies in the mtn streams and are taking up residency along the browns in larger, more fertile waters...at least here, anyway.

There are some populations of wild rainbow trout in forested freestone streams in western PA.

So they certainly they can live in that type of stream in PA.

I'm well aware of those streams. Some of them are on the Class A list as rainbow trout streams which I'm sure that you all ready know. I was talking about in central/South Central PA. I have never heard of or seen evidence myself about wild rainbows in a mountain stream here. I understand how I came across as unclear about what I meant.

 

[Mike]

Troutbert,
I waited until we sampled farther upstream to respond. A major part of the improvement is solely related to water temp improvements once a dam was removed. The fish population responded gradually. One big change from when the stream was surveyed in the late 1970's is that the substantial smallmouth population has disappeared. As the old impoundment site grew in with terrestrial vegetation and as the vegetation matured along the rest of the stream at the same time, it is clear that stream temps improved and that trout populations did as well. There is still more improvement possible, however, because the stream still supports a common shiner population, with the most being present closer to where the impoundment was located and a decline in numbers occurring farther downstream.

I doubt that the stream will support a Class A equivalent biomass in the future, as about a third of the two mile length that was surveyed using two representative sampling sites was impacted by substantial stormwater runoff and had predominantly pea gravel and sand substrate. It is unlikely that the two sites will ever average to the equivalent of a Class A biomass as a result and even the downstream site was only a low class B equivalent, but with a nice number of legal size fish. The downstream site was more ideal with less stormwater damage, good habitat, and a rocky substrate. Additionally, this is a stream that I shifted a decade ago to predominantly RT stocking, which may have also benefitted wild trout abundance.

For those concerned about RT spawning, I have had RT predominantly stocked in SE Pa for years and have only run into RT fingerlings on a few occasions. I have never run into a wild adult RT except in limestoners where we already knew that wild RT populations were present and perhaps in Codorus Ck.

Where have I seen RT fingerlings on occasions in stocked trout sections? Cold Run, trib to the Little Schuylkill, Beaver Ck, trib to Fishing Ck, York Co, Little Lehigh ( not Area 6)', Codorus Ck in the old days, and perhaps a handful of others where we might have recovered a single fish. This is also what I have seen when working statewide. Fall spawning of pa stocked RT is a big problem for over winter survival of fall production. Why the few fingerlings that are produced at times do not seem to survive is more of a mystery, but it could be related to cold water disease or generally poor adaptation to the wild.