Rainbows

[flymphfisher]

My buddy and I have a running debate going about stocked rainbows reproducing in our streams.

Can anyone point me in the right direction so I can do some research???

thanks,
scott

 

[pcray1231]

I'm not sure where you want me to send you. Fish commission data?

What's the debate? I'm willing to bet plenty of people on here are knowledgable enough to answer your questions. Are there wild rainbows in PA? Yeah, sure there are, and there's some isolated populations outside of the southcentral region that not so many people know about. They are still, by a large margin, the least common of the three main wild trout species in this state. And, except for maybe the famous southcentral streams like FSB, I doubt many will name exact stream names.

 

[Padraic]

You could look through the list of streams with reproduction to see how many of them show as rainbows. My guess is that it would be no more than a handful. There are some limestoners with wild rainbows in So Central PA, but I am doubtful they would reproduce in freestoners.

 

[JackM]

There is one creek I know of that has a reproducing wild rainbow population that is definitely a freestone creek. It does, however, have a higher total alkalinity measure than most mountain freestones, but only in the teens, not near as high as most limestoners.

 

[albatross]

I know of 2 other freestone streams with wild rainbows besides the one JackM talked about. Once they take hold, rainbows seem to displace brookies as well as browns do.

My observation is that it is unusual for stocked rainbows to establish breeding populations in PA. That said, it does happen because all wild populations in PA are a result of stocked fish establishing breeding populations. Not sure what variables may influence when or where this happens, but, as other have suggested, alkalinity may play a role.

 

[pcray1231]

Off the top of my head, I can think of 8 freestoners that definitely have significant numbers of wild rainbows. None of them are in SC Pennsylvania. To be fair, 3 of them are the same drainage, the main stem and two tribs. The other 5 are also fairly close to one another, but very separated from the first 3. I'm sure there's more that I don't know about.

There are a fair number of limestoners with at least a token population of wild rainbows, but for the most part the rainbows don't dominate in the limestoners. A few streams in SC PA are exceptions.

 

[pcray1231]

Oops, forgot about a "big" one, separate from the previously mentioned. That makes 3 "areas", none of which are in SC PA.

 

[RLeeP]

I'd like to see one of the AFM's address this and speculate as to why, despite the large number of planted RT's that go into streams where browns seem to have had little trouble establishing self-sustaining pops. (regardless of how robust or anemic), there are very few wild RT pops in PA streams.

I've heard a zillion different reasons from a different different sources, but never anything that struck me as definitive and suitably explanatory.

If I had to guess, I tend to think it has something to do with the strain(s) of RT the Commission has stocked over the years.

I have 2 reasons for thinking this:

1) Wild RT are not uncommon in smaller freestones in surrounding and nearby states, NY, VT, NH all have quite a few streams that turn rainbows. Even NJ has a much higher percentage of its streams that support wild RT than PA.

2) Where wild RT have succeeded in PA freestones, the biggest concentration of these waters have historically been in the greater ANF region. Since many or most of these streams were at one time stocked pretty heavily with RT from Federal hatcheries, I have to wonder if the strain of fish used by the Feds may (and its a very speculative *may*) been more capable of reproducing in the wild for some reason or another.

Personally (at the risk of POing the brook trout guys) I was always of the view that it would be a good thing for some of our small to medium freestone streams to develop wild RT fisheries.
They're a neat little fish. Hotter than firecrackers and by comparison, inch for inch, a brook trout fights like a gym sock full of shredded newspaper....

There, that ought to make me persona non grata.....

 

[pcray1231]

RLeeP,

I suspect you're observation of the ANF region is not quite accurate. Not that they're not there, but that they're not "only" there. When people find them, they tend to be a little hush about em. Most people from other areas of the state do not know they're in the ANF, and the reverse is true too.

There's rainbows in some SW and NE parts in freestoners as well. And of course we all know the SC limestoners, and some small populations in other limestoners. That's all over the state, really. But even where they're at, its only a handful of streams, it is still extremely obvious they are not nearly as widespread as browns or brookies.

I think of it this way. Browns are the bullies here, assuming equal footing to start they outcompete both rainbows and brookies. Browns can handle warmer water than either of the other two, and any size of water, so they always have their home base in the bigger, warmer waters from which to launch an invasion. With invaders from home base, they take over stream mile after stream mile, and have displaced the native brookies from their historical ranges. The brookie's defense lies its abilities to reproduce in acidic waters, neither browns nor rainbows can flourish there, and thus brookies have found a sanctuary from the onslaught in the acidic headwaters of freestoners. But rainbows have no sanctuary from the browns, everywhere they can flourish so can the browns.

There are only 2 situations for rainbows to succeed. One is for a stream previously with a low trout population, for whatever reason, to become viable again. In these cases, if rainbows get there first, they can establish a sizable population, and even brown trout struggle to dislodge a preexisting population of rainbows. The other is a large enough river that stays cold enough where browns and rainbows can coexist. In PA, for these rivers to be cold enough and have adequate spawning areas for trout is rare, but rainbow fingerlings do flourish in such situations.

There's also a few situations where there's a constant supply of rainbows. Those populations I do not consider self sustaining, left to their own devices the rainbows would die out within a few years. But because of a constant supply of stockies beyond the few times of year stocking, a few do reproduce. Near hatcheries (escapees), pay areas, etc.

 

[Jeep_Angler]

I've caught small (brookie small) wild rainbows in every section of the state, except for the SE section (I rarely fish there). The most have been in the SW section of the state in a handful of freestone streams.

I think that the wild rainbows I've caught have been a different strain than I typically encounter in stocked streams, but I'm not an expert.

 

[afishinado]

Yup, wild rainbows are a rarity in PA. One stream that I am very familiar with, in NEPA where I was born, had a nice population of wild rainbows. I just checked the FBC Class A listings and it’s now listed as a mixed brook & brown stream. I haven’t fished it in a while – say it ain’t so!

Of course, the premier wild rainbow stream/river in PA is the Delaware River. They were stocked there by accident over 100 years ago. In my early teens, I fished for stocked trout and thought all trout were dull colored, wimpy fighting fish, until I hooked into a wild rainbow while fishing the D for smallmouth. That fish fought and leap as well or better than any smallmouth I’ve ever hooked, and is really what got me started into fly-fishing for trout.

One possible explanation, not mentioned as to why wild rainbows are a rarity in this State, is the fact they spawn in the spring, rather than in the fall like brookies or browns. It is my understanding that the stocked rainbows now spawn in the late fall/early winter to allow them to grow to stocking size by the second spring. I’m not sure if they are bred to do this, or the amount of daylight is controlled to “fool” them into breeding. Whichever, that may have a bearing on why they are not very prolific in PA.

RLeeP wrote: “I was always of the view that it would be a good thing for some of our small to medium freestone streams to develop wild RT fisheries.
They're a neat little fish. Hotter than firecrackers and by comparison, inch for inch, a brook trout fights like a gym sock full of shredded newspaper....

There, that ought to make me persona non grata.....”



Persona non grata? - quite the opposite - you're the Man! I’ve fished the D, and many rivers out-west holding both browns and rainbows – give me a rainbow to do battle with any time. Also, rainbows take dries almost anytime, and most of the time they hold and feed in the fast water, which I prefer to fish. Without a doubt, no other trout is more fun to do battle with than the rainbow. If could choose the last fish I do battle with before I wade off to the big wild trout stream in the sky, it would be a tail-walking rainbow.

 

[MKern]

There are many streams with wild bows (like said many times before).

But if you think people are hush-hush about brookie streams, then you'll never hear anything about wild bow streams.

Think about it, people make stream reports, give advice on fishing, and openly talk about brookie streams, but have you ever seen a stream report on a bow stream???????

They are out there, and are in ever part of the state, so to answer your question -- yes the stock bows reproduce, but it is more rare than browns and brookies. However, one a stocked bow reproduces, the offspring will have wild fish tendencies; including spring reproduction.

 

[pcray1231]

Ok, well, this tool is publicly available with nothing more than a google search of Pennsylvania + wild trout, and it's run off the fish commission lists, so I don't think its too much in the K&T category.

http://orser7.erri.psu.edu/fishing2005/wild.htm

Go to show layers, check the "rainbows" box, then click on pan, and click in the center of the state. You can then zoom around and play as you choose. Click info, and then on the stream, and it gives you details.

It's kind of clunky, and not 100% accurate. For instance, I've caught wild rainbows in streams not listed, and the same is true for the other species. But its not completely worthless either, and it gives you a good overview of at least, the regions where they exist.

 

[albatross]

Looks like they are all over the state except for Center County. My guess is they are even more prevalent than this map would suggest.

 

[flymphfisher]

Well darn,

I asked, and you all answered!!!!!!!!! Thanks, and the reason for my question is stupid, He says that STOCKED rainbows don't reproduce and I have always said, that if they do out west, up north and everywhere else, then why the heck not in PA???????????? DUH I pass all the info along, and he now owes my a few cold ones,
Thans agin,
good fishin
Scott

 

[Acristickid]

Caught a small rainbow on the J yesterday that looked wild. Appeared too small to be stocked- not positive but I thought the stream only receives fingerling browns. ??

 

[JackM]

There are reproducing rainbows in Spruce. Also, if the fingerling stocking took place already, it is possible that a rainbow or two got mixed into the batch.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

They are ALOT more prevenlent than that map suggests. I can think of at least 10 streams off the top of my head that wild rainbows are in that arent on that map. But they are still the most rare of the wild trout in pa. (next to wild tigers and albinos of course.)Simpily because of the time of year that most rainbows spawn, in pa it is far to hot for most streams that time of year. With the PA fish comm trying to make a breed of bows that spawn in the fall.......who knows. We could get more. And who would complain

 

[Chaz]

I believe there are a couple of wild cards that prevent the rainbows from establishing themselve on a greater scale. First, the strain sucks, the few streams that have wild bows are streams that received fish from very early stockings from fish that were shipped from California. Second, they spawn in the spring, I saw a study that claimed browns and brookies have the advantage because flows are generally low when they spawn and high when rainbows spawn. I think they've been able to become established in streams where there are very low populations of other trout because of lack of competition.
All three speices are voracious predators so whichever species becomes established first has an advantage. Except in cases where browns were established, brookies do quite well when the competition from other trout is not there. Once one of the other species starts to establish itself all native fish are in trouble, not just brookies. Being a fan of bio-diversity I'd prefer not to see more exotic fish establish themselves in trout streams.