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Re: Private Water Fly Fishing
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Quote:

Greenweenie1 wrote:
Posters who make intelligent arguments or counter points are treated with respect while those that make no sense and pull stuff out of their backside are called out for what they are.


This is also I think what "grates" on some of us. There is nothing wrong with being spirited in your defense or proffer of an opinion. And most of us are arrogant regarding the validity of our opinions.

As much as it pains me to admit, you are correct in that some folks made factually inaccurate assumptions about Dr. Macri and his fishing club, but there could have been many other ways to correct these misunderstandings without sending out a general statement that seems to suggest that anyone who disagrees with you is an "idiot." There was only one "Idiot," and he was a literary character of Dostoyevsky. I recommend that book to you and everyone else who loves literature and mankind.

Posted on: 2012/2/25 8:50
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2006/11/20 10:08
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Hey Jack,
I can't fish today in the wind and snow, so I'm on here. I'm not sure there's just one idiot: I have been called an idiot by more than one person, and even my wife refers to me as an idiot for fly-fishing so much. So....

Posted on: 2012/2/25 10:57


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2006/12/13 9:28
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Posts: 18242
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Quote:

wbranch wrote:
Farmer Dave wrote;

"The truth is that Brook trout can live and and thrive as well as brown trout in any stream that currently is dominated by brown trout ... if not for the brown trout"

I can't disagree with you because I just don't have enough data. My comments were based on what I'd read in prior articles about the Beaverkill, it's initial population of brook trout, the falling numbers of caught fish, and the introduction of brown trout from Europe. If as you state that brook trout (char if you insist) can tolerate somewhat unfavorable water conditions why then do many authors state that the brook trout fishery was declining?

Overfishing perhaps when "sports" from the cities started making weekly treks to the Catskills on trains and autos became more readily available.


Maybe you can't disagree with me, but in my opinion that is no reason to get insulting. "If I insist?" Where did that come from? Of course I know that brook trout are really a member of the char family, but where did I contradict anyone for calling them trout?

To answer your question, they wrote that brook trout fisheries were declining because they really were declining.

That is fact and I didn't argue with that.

Because of that decline, Europeans decided they needed to stock trout in the Beaverkill. They chose to stock the larger brown and rainbow trout. They were simply more desirable at the time.

The brook trout were replaced with brown trout and rainbow trout. I didn't argue that either. But stocking browns and rainbows at the time was simply a matter of choice.

This did NOT save the fishery. It just changed the fishery.

It is quite true that brown trout will out-compete brook trout in some environments (including Beaverkill). But that doesn't mean that brook trout could not do well in the same environment if there were o brown trout.

Again, I'm not suggesting removing brown trout.

What would have happened if Europeans decided not to introduce new species and just raised brook trout in those same hatcheries? Would those streams now be devoid of all trout (or trout and char if you insist)? I don't think so.

Quote:


Your comments are interesting but I'd have to do some research before I could accept them 100%. I wonder if either of Ed Van Put's historical books about the Catskills defines the truth about why brown trout were introduced and was the brook trout in decline due to diminished water quality or because of introduction of a non-native (brown trout) into their original watersheds.


May I suggest you look at scientific information rather than reading novels.

Quote:
I did a little research after posting my comments and found material that supports my hypothosis regarding the decline of the native trout in cnyflyfish.com

"The famous Beaverkill in the Catskills is a prime example of the decline of the Brook Trout. They were once abundant in the Beaverkill, but due to the river's close proximity to New York City and increased industry, especially tanning mills, Brook Trout populations began to decline. Over fishing by tourists and declining water quality almost completely eliminated the Brook Trout from the Beaverkill by the end of the 1800s. In much of the native range the brook trout was replaced with non-native brown trout, imported from Germany, or the rainbow trout, which is native to the pacific northwest of north america. Today there are still populations of brook trout in the Catskills and brook trout are also stocked in the region by New York State hatcheries. The Beaverkill is now primarily a Brown Trout fishery."



And if you read it again, you will see that none of that contradicts my statement above that you quoted.

Also note that my earlier comments were inspired by the false statement (or implications) that acid had something to do with brown or rainbow trout replacing brook trout. It was likely an indirect contributor (contributed to the decline of brook trout thus create a need to stock), but it is scientific fact that of the three main trout/char species in this discussion, Brook trout are the most tolerant, and Rainbows are the least.

Then again, even if the brook trout population had not declined, it is likely that European Americans would have still stocked brown trout and rainbows anyway. It is what they do and the decline is a convenient excuse. It's why there are brook trout in Europe, and Rainbows in New Zealand.

Posted on: 2012/2/27 8:09
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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The two species have different preferences as far as holding water, so they may thrive in different places. But Farmer is right, I think, that from a survival standpoint, browns can tolerate just as much acid and have similar temperature requirements as well.

What they CAN withstand better than brookies is fishing pressure. So if fishing pressure is the reason for the decline of brookies, brown trout may be able to thrive in places brookies cannot.

You also have to consider timing. It is true that brookie populations declined. But it isn't necessarily true that as soon as you introduced browns, they took off. That may have happened after many years of stocking, and AFTER whatever the water quality issue that effected ALL trout had diminished.

For instance, lets say the quoted text is true, and tanning mills were primarily responsible for the decline of the brookie. Ok. But that doesn't mean they didn't affect browns as much! Perhaps they stocked browns for years, and no population took hold? And then a number of the tanning mills shut down or improved their practices, allowing viable water quality for brookies and browns again. Given equal footing at the start, browns will win that battle usually.

Posted on: 2012/2/27 16:30


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2006/12/29 10:00
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2011
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Quote:
But Farmer is right, I think, that from a survival standpoint, browns can tolerate just as much acid and have similar temperature requirements as well.


Been my experience that brookies handle acidic water better than all.
Brownies tolerate temps and pollution better.

Rainbows are wussies.

Posted on: 2012/2/28 7:10


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2006/12/13 9:28
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
The two species have different preferences as far as holding water, so they may thrive in different places. But Farmer is right, I think, that from a survival standpoint, browns can tolerate just as much acid and have similar temperature requirements as well.


I'm going to assume a typo error because first you said I was right, and then you appear to contradicted that.

... that you meant Brown trout cannot tolerate the acid as well.

The difference might not be huge between brook and brown, but it is measurable. Granted you also get some variations within strains of brook trout as well.

It has been proven both scientifically that brook trout handle the lower PH better.

I first discovered it in a large tank that was fed by a spring at my brother's old place. We used it to keep fish fresh in there for consumption. Brown trout would only survive maybe a half hour before going belly up. Brook trout would survive as long as the water flowed or until we ate them (all stocked).

At that time I did some research and found that it was likely the low PH of that spring that was the difference. Low PH is the norm for the springs in that area because of the geology. Plus it was not a good spring as far as volume either.

Anyway, of the big three, brook trout can handle lower PH, brown trout are next, and rainbows tolerate it the least. There is lots of info available, but it isn't the easiest search.

Other than that general description I unfortunately can't easily find any scientific data on the net at this time that isn't protected. Sorry. If I were at home and it were raining, I might try harder.

As far as temperature tolerance, it's about a degree F. Key word there is tolerance because at that point it is really about dissolved O content. The difference in their preferred temperatures I believe is a little bit greater. That is also from memory, and I would defer that to Chaz or KenU or Mike. They are all more knowledgeable on this than I.

I'm not going to respond on the rest because it is likely true.

I'm also going to agree with Squaretail that Brookies handle acid better but browns tolerate pollution better. My opinion is that browns also handle silt better, but I have no material to back that up.

Rainbows are wussies. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Posted on: 2012/3/1 7:14
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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While scientific studies may show that brookies can tolerate slightly lower acidity than browns, the fact remains that there are acidic waters where browns dominate, there are alkaline waters where brookies dominate, and there are lots of streams, both highly acidic and alkaline, where both species exist but one or the other clearly dominates.

When I said there were differences in preferences, I think I was referring more to stream structure, food supply/metabolism, breeding preferences, etc. than I was to water chemistry or temperature. I think there probably are measurable differences between species to their tolerances to water chemistry and temperature, however, I also think, as fishermen, we probably use those factors to explain far more than they are responsible for. All the while ignoring the other factors that may play more of a role in determining which species dominates a stream.

I'd also point out that regarding your little experiment, conditioning probably plays a large role in any small scale "experiment" like that. Take a brown or a brookie from an alkaline water, or very cold water, and put it in acidic or marginal water, and it'll die. Whereas the fish that is used to those conditions may survive, at least for a longer time period.

We're in agreement, though, that rainbows are wussies!!!!!

Posted on: 2012/3/1 10:02


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2006/12/13 9:28
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Pat, I didn't disagree with your "preference" part. To borrow some wording from Jack, we are talking past each other.

Of course there are low PH streams that have browns or both. But if a temporary but much higher acid event occurs, the browns expire more quickly. We all know that the PH in these streams is never constant. In face it changes with even the amount of daylight.

It is likely true that for the most part the fish commission does not look at this when determining whether or not to stock brown or brook trout, but it seems odd that all the higher acid streams in the ANF get only brook trout (if they get any at all) while the ones that are more tempered as far as PH get a mixture.

As far as our "little experiment," I doubt conditioning had very much to do with it, but it does show that you know your stuff. Conditioning can be a factor, but in this case I doubt it was. Anyway, all of these were stocked trout, and at least most came out of the same crick. In fact, there was at least once where we caught both brook and brown trout on the same day, same crick, and ended up having brown trout for dinner because they dies and the brook trout didn't. These trout likely came from the same white truck, and the same hatchery.

It may have been an accidental experiment, but clearly more scientific than what Gulf wrote about ethics.

I know it is hard for some to believe that those precious and fragile little brook trout are actually more hardy in some environments that those manly brown trout, but it is true. (And yes, I was being a little sarcastic in that last part)


Posted on: 2012/3/1 10:47
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

Joined:
2006/11/18 16:22
From Carlisle, PA
Posts: 7
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Dad-gum it. I was trying to find a place to fish for that Northern White Rhino here in Pa and now found out they are in Africa. Can someone start a new stocking program on Big Spring Creek? Give those big "Bows" a run for their money.

Posted on: 2012/3/21 17:36


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

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2009/4/4 20:05
From Sussex County, NJ
Posts: 13
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This is a joke...right? This thread reads like an episode of Cheers with Cliff Clavin droning on to Norm about the origin of the conservation movement, public waters vs private or whether brown trout can withstand acidic water. It's 70 degrees outside for gripes sake...go fishing.

Posted on: 2012/3/21 19:39


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

Joined:
7/3 17:33
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To Ramcat,

I am the duffas holding that brrok trout like a bass. Sorry it offends your sensabilities as I usually use forcepts and twist the fly while the fish is in the water. The wounded warrior from project "healing waters' who caught that fish wanted a photograph as it was his first trout ever caught. May be you would like to take part in this activity at our club and demonstrate proper release technique for these men.

Regards,

"Narrows"

Posted on: 7/4 0:01


Re: Private Water Fly Fishing

Joined:
7/3 17:33
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Thank for your defense of Gene. Your right about this club. It is definitely low buget and Gene receives no gratuity for his services. The club hasn aturally reproducing rainbows and browns and we do stock. This year it was 300 small brook trout for our members in their 70's and 80's who no longer can transverse much of the rubble and car size rocks in the stream.

Regards,

Frank Basehoar

Posted on: 7/4 0:08



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