On the outside looking in...

[afishinado]

I copied this from an article on Yahoo about the world’s most expensive homes:

Though it hasn't yet been built, Tim Blixseth is asking $155 million for his planned Montana lodge. He says that several members of the Forbes 400 have already expressed interest in what will be a 53,000-square-foot stone-and-wood mansion in the billionaire's members-only Yellowstone Club.

I really think that the U.S. is going the route of Europe. Most of the prime land and rivers bought by the wealthy. It’s not that far in the future…we’ll all be on the outside looking in…with a tear in our eyes.

 

[pete41]

The law could be changed if the voters are dense enough to allow it but as of now Montana has a stream access law that makes the streambed from highwater to highwater mark public property on any navigable stream.
That has been defined to mean capable of being floated by canoes.Many have tried to get around this by stringing barbed wire,claiming it was needed to keep the cattle in.It gets taken down and they get fined.
Some of the smaller streams have been cut off to the public but most are on state and National forest lands.
I knew of brook and rainbow streams that were loaded with fish that no one ever bothered with.It would bring tears to the Pa. fishermans eyes to see these unspoiled,trout filled streams going ignored because there is so much water out there.
Anyway be sure to wave to the billionaires as you fish their rivers.
Ironically it makes better fishing that you have to float or walk a little to get to fishing spots.

 

[tomgamber]

"Montana has a stream access law that makes the streambed from highwater to highwater mark public property on any navigable stream."

But when the guy owns the surrounding 400 acres....that doesn't help much.

 

[pete41]

I floated all the rivers on my canoe-deer season I took my 30/30 and shot their damned deer,also.A little work never hurt anyone,Tom.lol
Float and get out and fish the good spots.Good holds are far apart,anyway.

 

[afishinado]

Pete,

True about Montana and the high water mark law. I wish that were the case in PA.

Here is the good and bad about what’s happening out west. Ted Turner owns over 1.9 million acres (over 3,000 square miles out west, an area larger than the States of Delaware or Rhode Island) - and that's just one guy! That’s a long walk to the fishin’ hole. In fairness, he has done some good things for conservation too.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/03/news/economy/pluggedin_gunther_bison.fortune/index.htm?section=money_latest

Pete, living in Montana, doesn’t what’s happening in the Big Sky area and many other places in Montana bother you. It bothers me, and I just travel out there and visit once in a while. I see the changes ever time I visit. To me it’s like turning a beautiful wilderness area into an amusement park.

 

[pete41]

I live in Florida now-same access problem but I have a kayak.
There are some areas that are being amusement parked but there are Many Delaware,RI. sections in state and national forests or parks.You can have all the wilderness you can want as they are making it harder to drive in.I use to wander all over back in there.Never once met another soul.
It was all mine or nobodies depending how you look at it.lol
What is changing -people are getting fatter and lazier-they want everything easier.
Become a ridgerunner and have the experience we outdoor types yearn for.Solitude-

 

[Bruno]

If ya have the money to buy the land what's wrong with it. We are Capitalists. If it is my land, I may invite or disinvite whom i wish. If these folks are following the law then they have every right to do what they wish with their land.

Where do you guys that bitch and moan about "man buying up the land" live? Maybe a few squatters in your yard might change your minds. I have a hard time understanding this stance in this country.

 

[RLeeP]

>>If ya have the money to buy the land what's wrong with it. We are Capitalists. If it is my land, I may invite or disinvite whom i wish. If these folks are following the law then they have every right to do what they wish with their land.

Where do you guys that bitch and moan about "man buying up the land" live? Maybe a few squatters in your yard might change your minds. I have a hard time understanding this stance in this country.>>

Well, you're right of course.. However, at least so far as I am concerned, whether something is based in "capitalism" doesn't have a fig to do with whether it is right or wrong or good or bad.

There are lots of examples of stuff that is both legal and capitalistic and yet also contemptible and/or unethical. The entire philosophy for example of caveat emptor comes to mind as something while eminently legal and capitalistic isn't something that decent people would do to say, someone in their own family.

So, there's that.

Actually, my problem with wealthy landowners shutting off fishing access has little to do with me and a lot more to do with the future of the sport. The more that fishing becomes a pastime solely of those with the means to pursue it, the sooner it will die. And it already has too many other problems.

 

[afishinado]

I have no problem whatsoever with capitalism or land ownership. In fact I own nearly 200 acres of hunting land in the mountains. I don’t post it, and all (all well behaved) hunters and hikers are welcome to use my land. Yet, I still maintain my right to post it if I so chose.

I’ll tell you the reason I bought the land. Every place I hunted had been slowly bought up over the years and posted, or leased by a club and posted, or developed. I was constantly looking for a place to hunt other than the crowded state gamelands. Finally I bought some land and built a small log cabin on it, just to have a place to hunt for my family and me to hunt. Some people are not fortunate enough to be able afford to do that.

I just think it sad that more and more land, and more and more streams and rivers are going the private and/or “pay to play” route. Bruno, I believe you have a young son. What opportunities do you think he will have to see and enjoy the outdoors? How about his children? As time goes on you we see more and more of the wild and rural areas disappear along with stream access. Hopefully you will have the money to buy, lease, or pay for your hunting and fishing in the future.

As RleeP pointed out, just because something is legal – doesn’t mean that it’s right - and it doesn’t mean that I should not care about it. Just my opinion. Good luck.

 

I also, own land, with water running through it.
On my land, runs a creek. In this creek, Rainbow and Sea Run Cutthroat live and thrive.
Now, DO I, act the "Capitalist Pig" and ban everyone, that fishes, from my land "Because I own it and YOU don't, because I BOUGHT IT with MY hard earned money, so it's MINE, here me, MINE!!
Well..........no. I don't ban fishermen from our creek.
I let anyone, fish our water, that cares to. All I've ever asked, is what's on the signs I made and placed around various access points to our land:
"Please check in, at the house, before fishing. We'd hate to shoot you, thinking you were a bear! If you leave ANY LIITER, I'll find you and shoot you, anyway".
Thank you and good fishing!"
No,I'm no saint or great guy or the like. But, obviously, I FISH so it's easy for me to see the point of "How would I, feel, if I saw this creek and it was posted;
"No Trespassing"!?
I, also, sort of feel, that the creek was here BEFORE I was and it was no doubt free to everyone back then. I don't own the water, in this creek,obviously, because how could I?
I, do, have "rules to follow" when granting permission to fish the creek, but they're just run of the mill, basic, common sense ones to protect our land, as well as the creek.
Anyhoooo...... owning this micro piece of water, (compared to the real landowners), HAS given me a truly different perspective on the whys and why nots of posted waters.
The folks that really get to me, I suppose, are those that post their land strictly from the ego standpoint. It's this; "Because I CAN", attitude, I guess that makes me a just a little resentful of that type.
Bishop and I always ask, if a piece of particular water looks too good to pass up, when in places like Montana and/or, North Idaho.
We've been been refused by so many, we've lost count. We kept sort of a "mental journal record' this past season, while fishing Montana and we found that the fancier the house, the more expensive the cars, the more everything,of a given place.......... 90% of the time resulted in refusal when we'd ask.
England, is a perfect example of "private land ownership and the general public's access"......... there is about 2%-open to the public-trouting water in that country. It's why Carp Fishing and fishing for "rough fish" has become the sport of the commoner.

 

[pete41]

It use to be they would beg you to come fish their crick in Montana.I kid you not-why they wanted someone fishing them,I can't say.Many,many times I had people ask me to come fish.
However that was then,this is now and Montana has been Californicated .
The days of ``If the gate's open,leave it open-if its closed,close it'' are gone forever.Use to carry wire so you could patch the barbed wire if you had to cut it.Now they would probably arrest you.
Money talks-and the domino effect happens.
When I left everything private in the Blue Ribbon stream area was posted.Locals knew how to get around it and fish all but the smallest streams but visitors had to pretty much stick to public access points or hire guides.sad