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Little J No More

Joined:
2007/5/10 0:41
Posts: 20
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I live near the Little J - about 10 or 15 minutes, depending - and I have fished it for many years. Lately, however, I find myself fishing elsewhere. I've been thinking about that.

Partially, I am tired of wading such difficult water - I'm not getting any younger. Partially, I am tired of too much company - I miss the days when I always had 'my' pools to myself and I could spend a whole summer figuring them out - or not.

But that's just normal stuff, and not worth posting about. What really bothers me are the catch and release regulations. Having said that let me point out some qualifiers: I have fly fished for 30 years, and in 30 years I might have killed 20 trout (although that number seems high, looking at it). I remember every single one of them, too.

I love wild trout, and I love wild trout water. I only fish for wild fish. I have no interest in put and take fish. I'll do whatever I can - money, time, whatever - to preserve wild trout and the water they live in.

But I think blanket catch and release regulations are wrong. Much of the reason I fish is because when I am fishing I am part of the natural world and not a spectator/voyeur in it. But there is a circle that must be closed there for that to be true: every now and then, you have to kill one or it all means nothing. I kill trout not from a reckless disregard but from a sense of obligation - if I don't ever do that, well then I am just toying with them and I can't justify that. And there is nothing as good to eat as a wild trout, which is why (really) we all fish in the first place. I don't kill many fish - far from it - but if you tell me I can't kill any here, well, I will go elsewhere.

So I don't fish the Little J anymore. I wish it well, but I'll put my time in on other water. And I worry about the health of a river where it all becomes a game (I've fished others like this). It's not a game - it's a blood sport, with all of those implications for all of us, including the fish.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 1:40


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2007/2/20 0:36
From Barto PA
Posts: 105
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My God ! I just can't even begin to follow that logic. That would be like somebody playing a game of cards and suddenly getting the urge to blow away the Ace of Spades. Or some golfer wacking the ball and quickly reaching in his bag for his shotgun to try to shoot the ball out of mid-air. Fortunately though, cards and golf balls are not living creatures so I guess that wouldn't be very satisfying. Could you post where you plan to fish in the future so I'll know not to go there? Your urges scare me just a little.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 4:09


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/26 12:38
From water
Posts: 26
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Sorry to hear that. It just leaves more water for me. :) BTW: you'll be back if your really like fishing

Posted on: 2007/5/10 6:31


Re: Little J No More
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Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 9117
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Trubski,

I respect your opinion, and I understand it to some degree. Unfortunately, too many trout anglers catch and keep nearly every legal trout caught, and sometimes C&R is the only choice to maintain quality fishing on some of our most productive streams in the State.

The Little J is crowded, along with a lot of other quality rivers and streams in PA. I’ve been fly fishing for a long time too, and “back in the day” you could fish most streams a few weeks after opening day without seeing another angler. Not today. I’m guessing that 95% of the miles of streams containing trout are under general regulations, and the Little J is in the 5% with SRs.

Ironically if more waters had special regulations, the problem would be alleviated since that would spread the angling pressure over more miles of streams! Good luck.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 6:58


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/10 16:07
From Pine Grove
Posts: 2424
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Well, I've never been to the little J, and I do occasionally fish waters that are strictly C&R, but I follow his logic fairly well. We are part of the cycle and although our intentions are good as far as C&R, we do have an obligation to cull the herd, so to speak. Man has been interacting with this balancing act for thousands of years and to never do your part while interacting with it turns it into a game, like golf or poker. I like to golf. I'm sure if I had more time and money than brains I'd like poker(little jab at my poker playin' buddies). Fishing's in my blood. Everything else is a stupid game. It's our job to make sure everybody in the gene pool can swim. Once again, allow me to reitterate this. I do not generally kill trout. I do feel, however, that I am obliged to eat one meal of trout per year. Not gonna lie to ya, that meal is often either wild or holdover trout. I like the taste of stuf that's eaten a lot of bugs. Maybe it's how I was raised. My 95 year old grandmother says stocked trout taste like water. They never had stocked trout when she was younger. You could catch your weight in 8 and 9 inch natives in about an hour. Over harvest is still not an issue there. Nobody, and I mean friggin nobody fishes some of the streams there. I walked 3 miles of stream on the first day this year and saw not a single person other than my fishing buddy. It would be silly for someone to say I'm a bad person for killing 2 or 3 trout, even if they are wild. It amazes me that RRR questioned the logic behind this. Have you ever had someone who doesn't fish ask you how many trout you kept? When I tell them I release what I catch they just look at me like I have 3 heads and am killing puppies. Fishing is fishing. It's not a video game. It is a means of subsistence that we have kinda turned into a sport, but every now and then some of us prefer to do it for it's original purpose. It's an homage to the very mother that has provided for us. Definitely not trying to start something with you RRR, just saying that I see this guy's point to an extent. Oh well, I've rambled long enough. It's overcast, warm, and I have the day off, so umm, gotta go........

Boyer

Posted on: 2007/5/10 7:26


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6489
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ok not to get into a pissing battle but that is the biggest load i have ever read.....i hope im not alone!

Quote:
Partially, I am tired of wading such difficult water - I'm not getting any younger. Partially, I am tired of too much company - I miss the days when I always had 'my' pools to myself and I could spend a whole summer figuring them out - or not.

Quote:
So I don't fish the Little J anymore. I wish it well, but I'll put my time in on other water. And I worry about the health of a river where it all becomes a game (I've fished others like this). It's not a game - it's a blood sport, with all of those implications for all of us, including the fish.

well if your your not part of the solution your part of the problem. you leaving the little j will help over crowded conditions.

Quote:
And there is nothing as good to eat as a wild trout, which is why (really) we all fish in the first place.

this is NOT why i fish. while i agree that it makes me feel part of the natural world, I HATE THE TASTE OF TROUT....wild, holdover or fresh stock. i fish because it brings me peace. i can lose track of time....the world seems to stand still while im out there. because i love seeing a turtle, a bear, a deer....or anything in the REAL world.beacuse it doesnt matter whats pissin me off in life, my job, family or bills......fishin makes it all go away while my lines in the water. i donot fish to eat.....not when i have an entire isle at the grocery store dedecaded to just chips.

look im not saying the occasional harvest of a wild trout is wrong or bad. i dont do it....never will. just dont label me in YOUR book. we all dont "really" fish to eat. thats NOT why i do it.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 7:36
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
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Posts: 19011
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Matt (and Trubski), I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure with all that philosophical stuff in there.

No matter what anyone says, fishing is a blood sport. If it bothers anyone that they may harm a fish, they shouldn’t be fishing at all, or should use hookless flies. In fact, groups like PETA often have more of a problem with C&R only people than they do with someone who eats what they catch. Think about it. You are hooking a fish, playing with it, then you are releasing it after exhausting it, all for your own personal enjoyment. I can understand why animal rights people see this as torture. I don’t agree with them (because fish are not human), but I can see why they think that. Then you get way too many fly angers overplaying their catch to the point it needs revived. If you are constantly having to revive fish, you are playing them too long, and a lot more of them die than you think. Anyone using line smaller than 6X is probably overplaying fish, unless they are only fishing for the dinks. I’d rather use thicker line and catch less fish.

It is silly to compare fishing to golf or poker. Neither of these are normally considered to be blood sport. Fishing compares more to hunting. Both are blood sports that have their roots in feeding our families. That statement usually draws fire, but don’t confuse hunting with killing. Some people feel that you have to kill something in order for the hunt to be successful. They are entitled to that opinion, but it is not my opinion. Here is the way I look at it. Once I find what I are hunting for, it is up to me whether or not I want to harvest it. I often chose not to. I know what I can do, and don’t feel a need to kill something to prove it to myself or anyone else. The same is true with fishing. It is up to us whether or not we harvest anything. But there are difference which I am sure some of you are dying to point out. Here is a big difference. When I hunt, and decide not to harvest, the animal gets away totally unharmed. If we fish, and we catch and release, some of them still die. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with that. It is what it is.

As a general rule for wild trout, I chose to C&R. But I still usually avoid the C&R waters for 2 main reasons. First of all and most importantly, they tend to be too crowded. Secondly, if I should decide to keep a trout or two, I still have that option.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 8:18
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 19011
Offline
Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
ok not to get into a pissing battle but that is the biggest load i have ever read.....i hope im not alone!

Quote:
Partially, I am tired of wading such difficult water - I'm not getting any younger. Partially, I am tired of too much company - I miss the days when I always had 'my' pools to myself and I could spend a whole summer figuring them out - or not.

Quote:
So I don't fish the Little J anymore. I wish it well, but I'll put my time in on other water. And I worry about the health of a river where it all becomes a game (I've fished others like this). It's not a game - it's a blood sport, with all of those implications for all of us, including the fish.

well if your your not part of the solution your part of the problem. you leaving the little j will help over crowded conditions.

Quote:
And there is nothing as good to eat as a wild trout, which is why (really) we all fish in the first place.

this is NOT why i fish. while i agree that it makes me feel part of the natural world, I HATE THE TASTE OF TROUT....wild, holdover or fresh stock. i fish because it brings me peace. i can lose track of time....the world seems to stand still while im out there. because i love seeing a turtle, a bear, a deer....or anything in the REAL world.beacuse it doesnt matter whats pissin me off in life, my job, family or bills......fishin makes it all go away while my lines in the water. i donot fish to eat.....not when i have an entire isle at the grocery store dedecaded to just chips.

look im not saying the occasional harvest of a wild trout is wrong or bad. i dont do it....never will. just dont label me in YOUR book. we all dont "really" fish to eat. thats NOT why i do it.


Well sal, I think some of it is a load, but I don't think all of it is. I fish for the same reasons as you. I also hunt for the same reasons. But I also understand these is a blood sports. Without them, it is just a walk in the woods (which I also enjoy for the same reasons).

As far as how trout taste? I don't agree with that part either, but it didn't offend me at all. I'd rather have a hamburger, but i wouldn't want one everyday.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 8:29
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6489
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like i said i dont see a problem with the occasional harvest of a wild trout. the OCCASIONAL mind you.
Quote:
In fact, groups like PETA often have more of a problem with C&R only people than they do with someone who eats what they catch.

shouldnt they have more of a problem with people raising trout in hatcheries just for harvest and for our enjoyment. isnt that what we do to chickens? raise them to kill them....i know they have a problem with chicken farms. better yet it is proven that plants can feel pain on some level. what about all that corn we grow?
Quote:
I'd rather have a hamburger, but i wouldn't want one everyday.

try the seasoned curley fries!

Posted on: 2007/5/10 8:49
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http://cvtu.homestead.com/





Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2007/1/22 13:49
From Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 411
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Maybe it's because I'm new to the sport, but I can't agree with the "cull the herd" logic when it is applied to trout. Culling the herd makes sense with whitetails because we have largely eliminated their natural predators in this area, and because they thrive with the changes we've made to the natural world. I live near the Pennypack, and the bowhunters in the area provide a valuable service by thinning out that population.

Trout are a different matter. They still have natural predators (particularly when they're small), and changes to streams don't seem to help their numbers.

I love eating fish, and some day I may keep one. But until I hear a serious argument that we have an overpopulation of wild trout, I won't pretend I'm doing it for a nobler reason than my desire to eat good, fresh fish.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:01
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2007/5/10 0:41
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Thanks for the conversation, guys :) I wasn't trying to start a big rumble, I had just been thinking about how come I never wanted to go to the LittleJ anymore. And just for the record, I released 5 fish yesterday!

"I do not generally kill trout. I do feel, however, that I am obliged to eat one meal of trout per year. Not gonna lie to ya, that meal is often either wild or holdover trout."

Funny, that's kinda how I do it too :)

"But I also understand these is a blood sports. Without them, it is just a walk in the woods (which I also enjoy for the same reasons)."

An old friend of mine refers to grouse hunting as "taking the guns for a walk" - referring to our success rate, I suppose. I like walking too, but hunting is different, at least in theory.

"look im not saying the occasional harvest of a wild trout is wrong or bad. i dont do it....never will. just dont label me in YOUR book. we all dont "really" fish to eat. thats NOT why i do it."

Sorry, I didn't mean that. I only meant that fishing was developed as a means of subsistence, and people started to fly fish just 'cause it worked better. I don't fish primarily for food either - if I did, I'd be in trouble!

Now, I should figure out how to quote properly on this forum ...

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:11
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6489
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beside message there is a little ballon....just click and copy the text you want to quote.
i know you didnt mean to label me.

i can see your point of view. just dont exclude yourself from c&r waters. look at falling springs....the heritage section is beautiful and awesome...and if you felt the need to eat a trout the DHALO section is just downstream. but hey, you want to still not fish c&r waters....more room for me

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:18
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/14 10:34
From Southeast PA
Posts: 521
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I don’t understand the logic at all that says you have to kill some trout every now and then because you owe it to nature (I’m paraphrasing, but that is really the gist of what you and MattBoyer have said). The fish get along fine without man killing them. They have for thousands of years. You have no obligation to kill some for their own good! I really don’t have a problem with you killing a few to eat every now and then. I do have a problem with justifying it by saying that it’s our duty to do it for the greater good. And to say that you have to do it because you can’t justify “toying with them” – well, if you feel that way about it, killing 1 doesn’t justify toying with the hundreds that you release. I would say that you either have to get over the idea that it’s wrong to “toy” with them, or you should give up fishing. And killing trout or eating trout is NOT why we all fish. Many of us on this board do it for the sport only. And if I felt there was something wrong with that I wouldn’t do it. I don’t see the logic behind being put off by fishing as a “game” and reveling in fishing as a “blood sport”.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:23
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Re: Little J No More
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 9117
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Matt Boyer wrote – “Fishing is fishing. It's not a video game. It is a means of subsistence that we have kinda turned into a sport…..”

I fished Hays Creek this past weekend, and I watched an Amish family pull up along the stream in their horse and buggy. I went along with my fishing. When I returned, I saw that the young Amish men had a several fish on their rope stringer, most of which were wild fish. Hay has been fished hard since the stocking, and stocked fish are few and far between.

When I saw the fish, I began thinking that the father, grandfather, great-grandfather and many generations before of these young Amish men must have pulled up in their horse and fished these waters to catch tonight’s dinner. No freezer burn for these fish – the Amish waste nothing (and they don’t have freezers).

I had an exchange with Mike from the PFBC about a setting aside a special regulation area at Hay Creek. I realize that there are many points of view to consider by the PFBC about special regulations on PA waters.

I was glad to see that they will eat well tonight.

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:24


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 19011
Offline
Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
like i said i dont see a problem with the occasional harvest of a wild trout. the OCCASIONAL mind you.
Quote:
In fact, groups like PETA often have more of a problem with C&R only people than they do with someone who eats what they catch.

shouldnt they have more of a problem with people raising trout in hatcheries just for harvest and for our enjoyment. isnt that what we do to chickens? raise them to kill them....i know they have a problem with chicken farms. better yet it is proven that plants can feel pain on some level. what about all that corn we grow?
Quote:
I'd rather have a hamburger, but i wouldn't want one everyday.

try the seasoned curley fries!



Do taders feel pain?

Posted on: 2007/5/10 9:28
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--



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