I have a simple question

[goodeyesniper]

I am really dying to get out fishing, especially because I just got my girlfriend her new rod for xmas. But I'm only 16 and just got my ilcense a month or 2 ago and havent had much time to explore for creeks yet. I am not looking for any spot help but on the fish comission website they have the list of wild trout streams and class A streams. Do all of those hold trout for sure? Or do they not update them and is it a hit or miss? I don't have the money for gas to be driving around so i want to be pretty sure there is at least 1 trout in there.. Also do the trophy trout project streams get pounded and do they always hold fish?

Thanks for anyhelp

Goodeye

 

[JackM]

Goodeye, if the stream is on the class A list, it certainly holds wild fish. Unless there has been some catastrophe that escaped everyone's attention, the stream has fish. But, fishing for wild trout is different than fishing for stocked trout in that you can expect the fish to have found the best (most protected) lies and to be on high alert for overhead predators, which your shadow, silouette and image will represent.

If you go to a class A water and do not catch trout, it isn't possible to blame the stream, imo, but only yourself. That said, Winter can be very difficult fishing on smaller wild waters. The best time to go would be when the water temperatures can be expected to rise from recent levels and during the "heat" of the day, which now is likely to be from about 2:30 PM until 4.

Regarding Special Regs streams, it is probably true that most of them do hold over some trout through the winter. But note: they are stocked in the spring and fall, and that wouldn't be needed if the holdover population was significant. As for getting "pounded," I suspect you are asking whether they have been "cleaned out." I think that unless the habitat conditions have done all the trout in by now, there are at least a few that escaped the dreaded angler.

 

[JackM]

I suppose because I am bored and may have left a erroneous conclusion dangling from my "heat of the day" comment, be aware that smaller freestone wild trout waters are effected by snowmelt. The hottest part of the day in the air may end up being the coldest part of the day under-water because of the influx of snowmelt. All of that would have to be considered on a stream-by-stream basis.

 

[Fishnut]

You would probably be best going to a delayed harvest artificial lures only stream. They normally get heavy stocking in the fall and recieve minimum pressure. Wild trout is a a whole different ball game not for the rookie. Especially this time of year.

 

[stevehalupka]

lmfao...

what part of the state are you from?

 

[pcray1231]

Disagree, wild trout is often easier to catch fish. Not always, but often. ESPECIALLY in winter, as wild trout streams are just as full of fish as any other time of year.

To answer your question. Class A - has a biomass among the tops in PA. Yes, they are good wild trout streams. They don't survey every stream every year, and yeah, some of the survey's may be 20 years old. So it's possible it's not class A in biomass anymore. But it's very unlikely that a stream with that good of a population has no fish now, it'd take an extraordinary event to wipe em out like that, the type of event that makes papers and probably leads to surveying the stream again.

Streams with natural reproduction - These streams have found at least 1 trout in several year classes during the last survey. Most of them are honest to goodness wild trout streams that offer decent fishing. But like class A, some haven't been surveyed in a while. So, they may be better than they used to be, or worse. Also, most of the time, they simply list the stream headwaters to mouth, when the fish may be in a specific stretch. It's a bit more hit and miss than the class A list. However, most of my favorites are on this list but not class A list. There's some real gems in there, and they're the gems that fewer people know about.

All special reg streams tend to be fished harder than wild trout streams not on the special reg list. I can't say that trophy trout gets hit any worse than DHALO, FFO, C&R ALO, etc. For the most part, our special reg streams do hold trout year round. But some are stocked and certain times are certainly better than others.

 

[Chaz]

I almost never fish stocked streams and find them always disappointing to fish unless the trout are in a feeding frenzy. All of the Class A streams are good, but keep in mind the populations vary often from year to year and even from season to season. If the sun is out and there is snow on the ground you can get snow melt affecting the stream temps during the warmest part of the day. Jack said that already, and I agree.
Another thing that is important, especially this time of the year is to figure out when you are going to be on stream and anticipate where your shadow is going to be while your fishing. You may want to find another stream if you shadow is going to be on the water.

 

[goodeyesniper]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I am located Near telford, souderton, quakertown ect. Bucks county in SE pa. I think I made my question a lot more complicated than it needed to be and also I don't think i even asked what I was trying to. I guess what I'm trying to get at is

All thses pictures of little streams that guys are catching little brookies and browns on with perfect little runs and holes unlike stocked streams around my house. How do you go about finding these types of streams? I don't mind walking and finding out but how do you go about it? Where do you start ect. Do you literally just pull up and any game land and just walk around and try any creeks or streams you see? Or is there ways to concentrate your search on certain pieces of land ect. Thanks for anyhelp in advance.
Goodeye

 

[sandfly]

How do you go about finding these types of streams? I don't mind walking and finding out but how do you go about it? Where do you start ect. Do you literally just pull up and any game land and just walk around and try any creeks or streams you see? Or is there ways to concentrate your search on certain pieces of land ect. Thanks for anyhelp in advance.

just come up this way in spring and camp or rent a room and fish the small streams. there are a few in bucks too, was just talking to loum on here about a few of them..temperture and food are 2 of the biggest ways to find fish..

 

[Swattie87]

In general to find these smaller streams you need to look "uphill," or upstream in a watershed. Get a good topographic map or just go to Google Maps and turn it to topo mode. As the blue stream lines on the map branch out and get smaller, you know you're going upstream. Look for areas with mountains or hills and more gradient, or areas where there is a decent valley or gulley. You can then cross reference the streams you find on the maps with the Nat Repro or Class A lists discussed above to see if they've been documented as having wild trout.

Bucks county has a few streams on the Nat Repro list (none of which I'm familiar with), but if you look in your neighboring counties to the northwest you'll find more.

 

[pcray1231]

I do go searching for streams. Yes, I have ways of concentrating my search, and am willing to share those. That said, it's quite often that you go to a new stream and find out it's not very good. Even the streams that are good aren't ALWAYS good. A lot of these streams cycle from year to year. Get a couple good years, and the size and numbers are great. Get a rough summer, and the population crashes. And then perhaps for a year or two, as it recovers, the average fish is very small.

As far as finding them, the streams with natural reproduction list is a good place to start. Then off to google maps, toggle between terrain and satellite views of the stream in question.

Mostly forested is a HUGE plus. These streams tend to have less siltation, more stable flows, and run cooler. If there are farm fields and such upstream, I often skip it. The exception may be if the stream is suspected to be a limestoner. Because they often originate from large springs, the warming effect of sunlight may be reduced, as will the siltation issues (less distance to pick up mud).

High gradient is a plus. This mostly limits you to mountainous areas. Valley streams, between mountains, can be good. But even better is a sizable stream coming down a mountain in a gulley. Slow, flatland streams often aren't very good. Again, the exception is a limestoner.

Often if you google the stream name, you can find hiking blogs and such with pictures, which can give you an idea of what the stream is like.

Always gotta keep in mind the chances of posted ground. SGL, state or national forest, and you're in the clear.

Beyond that, being near, or similar in form/source from known good streams is a big plus. A lot of these streams suffer from acid rain. Local rock type plays a big part in the water chemistry and the stream's ability to combat that. Obviously limestone is the best but there are differences between different sandstone, shale, slate, formations. So if you find a good stream, the one next to it that comes down the same mountain from the same general area probably is similar in many respects and worthy of a visit.

Look for impoundments. Usually, below the lake the stream isn't very good. Above it can be good. And if you're really trophy hunting (looking for the occasional big brown or 12 inch brookie), then above reservoirs, or slightly upstream from a larger, richer stream, is good for that.

Other than that, go and see. Always have a backup plan. I've gone to streams that turned out to be posted, or are just so choked with rhodo it's ridiculous, or are horribly polluted with AMD, etc. You go to plan B before even wetting a line! But more often than not, you find some fish and have a nice time. After trying a bunch of these streams, you wind up with a few true gems.

 

[Swattie87]

^Great breakdown pcray and great advice. That's basically the more detailed account of my methodology as well.

I agree the limestoners are tougher to pinpoint from just looking at maps, but they generally have more info out there on the net about them than do mountain freestoners too.

Focusing on SGL, State Parks, State/Nat'l Forests is good advice too...you know those streams will be open and not posted. If you decide to make a trip to fish some small streams, try to pick areas that have several options in close proximity to one another...if one turns out to be a bust, or already has someone fishing it, you can switch streams and won't have wasted your gas. This is often easy to do as streams in a watershed often share similar characteristics...if a headwater stream has wild trout in it, there's a good chance its sister streams in the next couple gulleys over do too.

 

[goodeyesniper]

Thanks for the advice guys! I appreciate it. I'm SO tired of my season ending after it gets to warm and the stockies die off, or they just get fished out. And it just looks like so much fun sneaking around and the scenery is amazing. I will give it a try and keep you posted.. Also what is the difference between a limestone, and a freestone. The little lehigh is a limestone right? And what exactly are the head waters? Would it be the "parts that branch out" in refference to Swattie87's first post when he was explaining that if the stream on google maps starts splitting and branching out you know your going upstream. Thanks a lot! When researching it the last few months I got to many answers to these questions and I didnt know which ones were right and wrong! Thanks a lot!
Goodeye

 

[testynesty]

hop on 309 or 476 and head north a half hour or 45 mins!
check out pa fish and boat comm website, check out the county guide.... the green and blue color coded streams!

 

[BMarx]

Jack and Pcray and others have give you pretty good advice. As far as finding streams, pick up a gazateer or use googlemaps/terrain, search for the blue lines within the area you're willing to travel, and cross reference the names/locations with the PGC lists you're looking at. That is the best way to find them now. In the spring/summer, sometimes the best way is to take a hike with a flyrod, a hopper and a dropper, and just hike up streams in good cold areas and explore! Its a little cold for that now, I can tell you from experience you want to make fly fishing enjoyable for the girlfriend (or any beginner for that matter) to start, because if it is like 6 trips and no fish, some (not all) people tend to lose interest.

 

[Swattie87]

Goodeye - Yes, the LL is a limestoner. There are many differences between limestone streams and freestone streams (and probably many threads on the subject), but I was referring to the differences in their origins and how that relates to locating wild trout streams on maps.

In general freestone streams originate from many smaller spring sources over a longer course. This means they usually start out as trickles at higher elevations and then grow in size as they pick up more springs and tributaries as they flow downstream. The “headwaters” of a stream is the area in which it originates, often at a relatively high elevation (for the area). Often freestoners have several headwater branches that converge to form the main stream. You can use these clues to “backtrack” upstream on the map to find the headwaters of a stream. This is where the stream will be smaller, cooler, and often have more gradient and forested canopy…all of which make it more likely to be suitable habitat for wild trout.

Limestoners form from a limestone spring that comes to the surface. These springs are often larger and emerge as a rather significant flow. Sometimes these larger springs emerge at higher elevations, but more often they show up in valleys or at lower elevations (the Cumberland Valley limestone streams for example). On a map it appears that the stream essentially comes out of nowhere, with no tributary branches, and it’s tough to differentiate a limestoner from other non-limestone “blue lines” on the map.

In general limestone streams are capable of holding a more consistent temperature and flow than freestone streams. This is because a large portion of their flow is derived from a significant spring source which feeds the stream with a fairly constant flow rate at a relatively constant temperature (about 52 degrees or so year round, +/- a few degrees). This means limestoners stay relatively warm in Winter, and relatively cool in Summer. As you get further away from the spring source, these attributes diminish however. Limestoners are also more alkaline than freestoners because they emerge from, or flow through limestone belts. The more alkaline water leads to more aquatic vegetation and a denser, but less diverse population of bugs than freestoners. This gives the fish many places to hide, and makes them tend to be more picky in terms of what and when they eat.

 

[pcray1231]

But you can think of it as, in a true, classic, limestoner, the headwaters are underground.

Most limestoners are actually hybrids. So much of the headwaters are underground, but they may have some freestone tributaries as well.

 

[Swattie87]

pcray1231 wrote:
But you can think of it as, in a true, classic, limestoner, the headwaters are underground.

Most limestoners are actually hybrids. So much of the headwaters are underground, but they may have some freestone tributaries as well.

Agreed. The methodology you laid out (and that I use also) tends to work better with freestone streams for this reason...their headwaters are on the surface, and thus on the map.

Some freestoners travel over a limestone belt for a while and pick up some limestone characteristics for parts of their course, but for purposes of locating them on a map, they still look like freestoners.

 

[sandfly]

little lehigh is closer to a british chalk stream than a limestone stream. written about over the years, it has a different make up compared to other streams in the area.