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Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/11/2 8:50
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Quote:

PatrickC wrote:

As for the Rosgen classification. I am not familiar with it. All of my degrees are in the biological sciences. That being said, I'll look it up. I'm sure I'm competent to understand it. I'll get back with you on that.


You shouldn't assume that what says Rosgen is correct. If you are going to get into the topic of fluvial geomorphology, read widely on the topic, not just Rosgen's views.



Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:21


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
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P: I just re-read your message and see that you fished all the way to the mouth and did not see any debris piles, so it is likely that the wood made it all the way to the river and out, suggesting that your stream reached its peak stage well before the river rose. Had the receiving river rose earlier, a backwater effect might have caused the wood from your stream to collect at its mouth. This certainly is a fruitful field for speculation.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:23


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Fair enough Troutbert. Rosgen is not the only engineer in this field and he certainly has his detractors, but we should give him his due and recognize that he has been studying streams for decades. He is in the business of stabilizing and enhancing stream reaches, and anyone who engages in that sort of thing is likely to have some screw-ups. Streams have a way of making a monkey out of the best engineers. I am also a fan of Dave Derrick, an engineer out of the Corps' Waterways Experiment Station in Vicksburg, MS. I believe he has recently retired and formed his own consultancy. He generally has a lighter hand than Rosgen.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:33


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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TB: To re-iterate, I mention Rosgen because he has a well-thought-out stream classification system which is very handy for comparing apples and oranges, so to speak. I am indifferent as to the efficacy of his stream restoration work. I have seen his techniques (not his work) succeed and fail from place to place. I have never seen a project he designed and implemented, so I cannot say whether or not his techniques were misapplied in the failed projects I have observed.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:43


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
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Patrick: If you are interested, here is a reading list of texts to get you started:

David Rosgen, "Applied River Morphology" 1996 Wildland Hydrology, Inc. Pagosa Springs, CO

F. Richard Hauer and Gary A. Lamberti, "Methods in Stream Ecology" 2006, 1996 Elsevier, Inc., Burlington, MA

Luna Leopold, et. al., "Fluvial Processes in Geomorphology" 1964, 1992, Dover Press, Mineola, NY

The first two I received as class textbook materials, so I'm not sure they are generally available. The Leopold book is available on line through Dover Press.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:51


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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As a non-academic alternative, you might try picking up a copy of "Better Trout Habitat" by Christopher J. Hunter, 1991, Island Press, Washington DC.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:55


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Posted on: 2013/7/16 23:04


Re: How a Stream Can Change

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
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Posted on: 2013/7/16 23:05


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Posted on: 2013/7/16 23:07


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2010/5/1 9:10
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:

You shouldn't assume that what says Rosgen is correct. If you are going to get into the topic of fluvial geomorphology, read widely on the topic, not just Rosgen's views.




No worries there... Undergrad, graduate school, and an earned doctorate...I assume nothing

Posted on: 2013/7/16 23:11
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"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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In briefly surveying the Rosgen classification, the stream is certainly an A or B. I need to look at the criteria a little closer to clarify. That classification system is as complex as tumor classification.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 23:16
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"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2009/5/7 14:38
From Collegeville, PA
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"A view of The River" by Luna Leopold is a good, not too technical book. It doesn't talk about stream restoration, but it does talk about why and how streams change over time. Another good fisher friendly book is "Stream Dynamics For The Complete Fly Fisherman" by Robert A. Miller.

Posted on: 2013/7/17 0:36


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/13 10:18
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I can tell from experience anything we do structure wise in a stream environment will eventually fail.
Even chop and drop can fail if not done so that the trees can be washed away.
The trouble is most streams have been so impacted by human intervention that it's nearly impossible to find water that hasn't been impacted, and it's very hard to reverse. Good example is any stream you pick in a state forest that has a trail along it there's almost always some impact. A lot of times it goes back way before the trail was built, usually to the logging days.

Posted on: 2013/7/17 9:17
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Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Quote:

Tups wrote:
Patrick: there are 2 types of stream pools in nature: plunge pools and dam pools. Last year your stream reach had both, this year it has only a plunge pool. In your photo, the brush now appears piled up and impinged against the right descending bank, making a nice bit of undercut trout cover.

I'd verture a guess, from experience that there are far more than 2 types of pools, right off the top of my hea there's bend pools and meander pools, and boulder pools, these are not a result of a blockage or a plunge.
All the "natural dams" cause by debris are usually good for trout streams, but I understand that not all anglers like them. Woody debris is very important for trout habitat, and should only be removed if it causes a threat to a bridge or a road, and only then if the threat is immediate. Those "nature dams" raise the stream back to the flood plain level and re-connect the streams the the flood plains, flood plains are a integral part of every stream valley, too often the streams aren't allowed to go over the banks into the flood plains, because of human intervention in the past.

Posted on: 2013/7/17 9:22


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
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Patrick: I believe B-types are more common in the mountains of PA. The main difference between A's and B's is the channel slope. If your stream bed drops 4 to 10 feet over 100 feet of horizontal distance, then you have an A type. If it drops less than 4 feet, then it's a B-type. When you fish an A-type, you find yourself using your hands as well as your feet to move upstream. In PA you often find them spilling down a steep mountainside and feeding directly into a large river. The Delaware Water Gap area has some fishable A-types. The Alleghany National Forest area also has some. I think that because PA does not have any truly high peaks, most of the A-types have small catchments, resulting in very small channels (often choked with rhododendron). The wild brookies are likely there, but good luck presenting a fly.

Posted on: 2013/7/17 10:22



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