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Re: How a Stream Can Change

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
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Quote:

Maurice wrote:

Patrick, you obviously havn't read the spawning bows thread. Stocked trout can't reproduce and establish populations. there must have been browns there since the 20's or a WBT pop in the watershed that moved into that stream. }TIC{


Yea, stayed out of that insanity. I was not about to inject my 3 different degrees in biology in to an argument made from Wikipedia articles

I have this 93 y/o patient named Ben. Ben is a retired psychiatrist. He taught me one of life's greatest lessons. Here's what he said:

"You are wasting your time speaking rationally to someone who is being irrational. No matter how true your rational statements are, they don't live in that world and you are wasting your breath. You are better speaking to them later when they come back to their senses."


Posted on: 2013/6/15 12:28
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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From NE OH
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An update on the original run in this conversation. The rains over the last couple of weeks have dramatically changed things. The outflow is no longer blocked at all with wood debris. All that is left is now along the side. If you look close, you can actually see the hole below. It's been a LONG time since that was possible. There is also another outflow off to the left that has fully cleared out and created a new accessible hole below. This is from last Friday. Streams are dynamic to say the least.

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Posted on: 2013/7/16 12:12
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Quote:

PatrickC wrote:
Streams are dynamic to say the least.


Some still are. But many streams are highly altered, in ways that reduce their dynamic characteristics.

I wish I had $5 for every stream stabilization project ever done.

In Europe they have a special category of high value conservation areas called "active alluvial zones."

They place an emphasis on protecting these areas because there are so few of them left.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 13:57


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
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Patrick: there are 2 types of stream pools in nature: plunge pools and dam pools. Last year your stream reach had both, this year it has only a plunge pool. In your photo, the brush now appears piled up and impinged against the right descending bank, making a nice bit of undercut trout cover.

Troutbert: It does seem that most streams in PA are altered, even those with only lightly developed, or even undeveloped, valleys. The alteration is usually caused by a roadway, cutting the channel off from its floodplain.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 17:26


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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From harlansburg
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of course streams will change, heck, the entire earth keeps changing.
streams and rivers will continue carving out the valleys they run through.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 17:39


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Biker: Yes, streams will continue to carve out the valleys they run through. I believe TB was lamenting the fact that many streams have been so altered by man's activities that the carving is not always positive from a trout habitat perspective.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 17:45


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Agree Tups. The cool thing is that over the last month, the rains have removed almost all the dams and restored all pf the plunge pools. I told my buddy the other day when I got back, "She looks like a trout stream again." I'm anxious to see how the fish redistribute. I have a great photo record of the big fish in this stream. They have stayed in pretty much the same areas for the last 3 years. This will shuffle the deck.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 18:20
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
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Patrick: It is interesting to see what channel modifications the floods create. A year of excess rain like this one is welcomed for that reason. Though I've never fished it, and likely never will, your post has made me curious about the changes to your stream. Keep us posted on your findings. I'd like to know if the removal of the dams has improved or hurt the trout fishing. After all, the wood is still there, but has moved to different locations.

BTW, are you familiar with the Rosgen stream classification system? If so, how would you characterize the stream?

Posted on: 2013/7/16 18:34


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Quote:

PatrickC wrote:
Agree Tups. The cool thing is that over the last month, the rains have removed almost all the dams and restored all pf the plunge pools. I told my buddy the other day when I got back, "She looks like a trout stream again." I'm anxious to see how the fish redistribute. I have a great photo record of the big fish in this stream. They have stayed in pretty much the same areas for the last 3 years. This will shuffle the deck.


Wasn't the pool deeper when the LWD jam was in place?

Why do you think this is better, when the pool appears to be much shallower?

Posted on: 2013/7/16 18:54


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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From harlansburg
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Quote:

Tups wrote:
Biker: Yes, streams will continue to carve out the valleys they run through. I believe TB was lamenting the fact that many streams have been so altered by man's activities that the carving is not always positive from a trout habitat perspective.


got ya!
man can NEVER improve on mother nature, he tries, but always fails in the long run. He will also never learn and will continue to try.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 19:04


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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Quote:

Tups wrote:

BTW, are you familiar with the Rosgen stream classification system? If so, how would you characterize the stream?


Tups, if you took the Rosgen course, what did he teach in regard to LWD (large woody debris) and the physical aspects of streams?

Also what did he teach in regard to lateral stability vs the "dynamic" aspects of streams, i.e. lateral movement of channels?

And do you agree with what he taught about these 2 topics?

Posted on: 2013/7/16 21:02


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
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TB: I took his introductory course about 20 years ago, so my recollections are a bit sketchy. In any case, the theme of the training was the stream classification system, rather than a discussion of natural stream processes. I do recall he was fond of installing root wads to redirect stream energy and create in-stream habitat. My understanding is that Rosgen's approach is intended to create a stable stream reach (lateral stability), rather than to encourage stream dynamics. His corrective actions are usually applied after the stream has been degraded for one reason or another. I can't speak for him, but I'm sure he would counsel against taking action in response to a stream moving laterally if its effects were innocuous. Usually, though, it is the lateral movement of a stream which threatens infrastructure which gets the treatment. I have seen many of those.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 21:17


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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So, in reference to the large woody debris...it's gone. I fish 2 miles from the top down to the mouth of this creek. A month ago this creek had so many dam pools I can't count them all. Right now I believe it has exactly...1 (which is the lone dam pool that was unchanged from the floods). The high water marks along the gorge are higher than I would have ever imagined. I anticipate that the middle of the stream was 20 foot deep during the flood in a few places. It's the most water I have ever noted to come through here.

There is some debris along the stream that certainly accounts for some of the previous dam debris. I suspect much of it literally blew out into the creek it feeds. I anticipated coming to a huge wall of debris at some point and it never happened. It was like the cleaning lady came through and made it naturally perfect again. I know a guy that fished this very stream 50 years ago as a kid and he has shared great details about it with me from back then.

There will be minimal lateral movement of this stream because much of it is a gorge. There are some areas that can migrate a little.

As for the pictured hole being shallower, yes that is true, but the removal of the dam changed the flows in a way that made the plunge pools better. So while that specific pool is not like it was last Winter, the pool below it and and an adjacent pool are better than ever. Up until a year ago, the pictured pool was generally pretty shallow like it is now. It was only a pond for about 1 year. The remaining debris you see in the picture now is not effecting the outflow. It's just along the bank, but because of the way the stream turns, it appears kind of like a dam.

I agree with Al on stream improvement. If we just leave well enough alone, this stream will be fine without our help. The fish sure don't need our help. They are fat and healthy for such a small system.

As for the Rosgen classification. I am not familiar with it. All of my degrees are in the biological sciences. That being said, I'll look it up. I'm sure I'm competent to understand it. I'll get back with you on that.

Holy crap....this is a Pcray post. Sorry

Posted on: 2013/7/16 21:33
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2011/5/9 15:37
From Ohio
Posts: 1094
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Good stuff Patrick. I probably won't visit this particular stream again until fall, but I'm anxious to see the changes. I couldn't imagine what it would of been like with all that water.

There's plenty of other streams that I notice change from year to year(or at least after every major blow out). Usually just little things, but occasionally I come across a totally new pool, or maybe come across a favorite pool that has changed. New holes may be created, and others may be ruined, but either way it keeps things fresh and keeps us on our toes.

"I agree with Al on stream improvement. If we just leave well enough alone, this stream will be fine without our help. The fish sure don't need our help. They are fat and healthy for such a small system."

I couldn't agree more with these 4 sentences. Let mother nature take care of our streams, at least the ones we didn't already mess up.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 21:57


Re: How a Stream Can Change

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2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 572
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Patrick: I was wondering what happened to all of the woody debris that had built up over time. If your stream is a Rosgen A type (probable), then I suspect the wood has indeed blown down through the valley and has likely collected well downstream near its junction with the larger stream or river it feeds. A and B type streams are somewhat naturally entrenched and lack a well developed floodplain where wood could be deposited. If the valley is forested, as it appears to be, the wood will return in time. Meanwhile nature has taken its course and the results are indeed innocuous. The lesson learned is that because the catchment is forested and stable, the stream survived a major flood with no ill effects.

Posted on: 2013/7/16 22:19



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