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Re: Hardest Trout to Catch
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
You're statement says it all, "there is nothing inferior about hatchery-raised trout other than the habits instilled during several months of hatchery rearing."


You seem to have forgot this part of my quote: "which are quickly shed once they are in the stream."

If you want to use my statements to "say it all," please use the entire statement. Otherwise, it is really just YOUR statement.

PS, how did I know that "Stone_Fly" would soon find agreement and corroboration from Chaz?

Posted on: 2007/6/15 9:29
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Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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Ok, I'm a little curious at this point...if... as chaz says, ...

"they don't act like wild fish, they don't feed like wild fish, and they don't survive and spawn like wild fish"

How is it we have may streams where browns and even a few rainbows are reproducing? Even some of the reproducing brookies in some streams began as stocked fish.

I believe given good habitat and food supply, hatchery fish would have no problem reproducing. Maybe not all of them but enough to sustain a population. And those that did, would produce offspring with an even greater chance to successfully reproduce. The reasons they don't are poor habitat and water quality and over harvest.


Lets face it...they are fish...they eat, swim and make little fishes...even hatchery raised salmon and steelhead run to the open water and return to spawn...I don't think they've bred the instinctive urges out of those fish yet...what they "learn" being raised in a raceway are habits...habits can be broken...they are not changing the genetic survival instincts natural to a fish...

Posted on: 2007/6/15 9:57


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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Check out this PFBC fish survey for Yellow Creek.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/fi ... fm/2006/7x07_05yellow.htm

The best option for any stream is wild trout – if the stream is capable of producing and maintain a population. I’ve never fished Yellow Creek, but I understand it is a stream capable of, and does sustain a lot of wild fish. I believe that both areas surveyed are stocked heavily in the spring. The first area is under general regulations and the second is C&R. I assume the survey was done after the spring fishing season. Very few stocked trout remain and the wild fish survive. My question is why stock such a stream at all!

Posted on: 2007/6/15 10:33


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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Jack said, " which are quickly shed once they are in the stream."
Because Jack I don't believe this for a minute. Why else will trout follow humans that walk along the strea,. they are used to humans throwing food to them, why else do hatchery trout not spook when humans walk along the streams, because hatchery trout are used to them, hatchery only start to shed hatchery habits after being in the stream long enough to start loosing body weight, then and only then do they start to really serach for food. When they first are thrown in they fight with each other over possiton in the stream the same as they do in a hatchery, if you throw pellets at them they fight to get there first, they still play grab ssa with each other, Heck I've even had them swimming around my feet while looking up. These are hardly charactoristics of wild fish.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 10:37


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
These are hardly charactoristics of wild fish.


Yes, but give a hook to one and that will change...I've fished "educated" trout...stockies won't follow humans around for long when they figure our the food is found elsewhere. I think Jack's use of the term "quickly" is a relative term. At least for me...

Posted on: 2007/6/15 11:34


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch
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Quickly is relative, of course, but stocked fish will take naturals within the first 48 hours and will fall for imitations of aquatic insects that early also. For sure, they probably "mistake them" for a pellet, whether a natural or artificial, but I never claimed they were smart. However, within a couple weeks, they are completely dependent upon stream forage for survival and they do eat. If there is sufficient natural food, they thrive.

Oh, and I have NEVER been followed by a stocked trout. I think this is a bunch of horsepucky.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 11:40
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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I think it was in March 1994 on Fishing Creek at Grassmere Park in the old special regs area. I went there because I got off work early, since I'd never fished there before I thought I'd check it out because I was nearby. Anyway there were plenty of recently stocked fish as evidenced by the number of trout I could see. I tried an old favorite, a Royal Wulff, and they simply ignored the fly in favor of following me around for hours. Thankfully this is now a wild trout stream and the brookies there spook fairly easily. But I assure you they aren't brookies from hatchery fish; these are purely wild strain fish. Since I don't fish stocked streams much I don't have this happen too often, but on Bear Creek in Schuylkill County just last year they were following me around, maybe I smelled good to them. Seems I never smell good to any humans, but that's cause I work hard and play harder.
Then there was the time at the Little Lehigh, after having purchased a bag or 2 of pellets, I fed some of the hatchery fish. Having finished walking around the hatchery and checking things out there I proceeded to walk the upper section of the fly stretch. I'm always interested in what is happening there, so I went up to where there was no one fishing because I wanted to see just how many fish were in one of my favorite pools. Anyway I threw in a handful of pellets and more trout then you can imagine came up and were fighting over the pellets. This section is officially unstocked remember.
So I got a bit more aggressive with the feeding and the entire pool was boiling with fish. I used up the trout pellets, and started walking again, down to the hatchery pool this time. I asked one of the guys there if he was having any luck and I got a rather terse, "I don't have time right now, there's a hatch and I've got to figure out what the trout are taking."
Absolutely true story, so the trout never forget what a pellet is, I promise that if you want to catch picky hatchery fish long after they were stocked, try a pellet fly.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 12:13
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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2007/6/1 11:02
From Mechanicsburg,PA
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I do agree that the hardest trout to catch on a fly is a brown trout. Key words there is " on a fly ". Someone correct me if I am wrong. When a brown trout hits about 12 in it goes through alot of changes and one of the biggest is its diet. Once they hit a decent size they are more likely to search for larger prey. Crayfish, minnows, smaller trout, and even mice are on the menu. If these meals are readily available the chances of them noticing your fly goes way down. Unfortanately this gives bait fisherman a great advantage. As far as bait fishing goes I would have to say browns are the easiest to catch. Since browns have a keener sense of smell they do alot of their feeding in the evening and night when there is low light. Bait fisherman who target these browns at night eliminate the spook factor, unless they're wading. I know of plenty of streams that get pounded at night by baitfisherman. Honey, logans branch, just to name a couple. Hopefully not to many catch on to this.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 15:51
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Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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2006/9/18 8:28
From Attitudinally, one mile south of Lake LeBoeuf
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>>Any stream with sufficient food and habitat (including water quality) will hold over stocked trout. Contrary to a certain prevailing prejudice, there is nothing inferior about hatchery-raised trout other than the habits instilled during several months of hatchery rearing, which are quickly shed once they are in the stream.>>

Actually, I think you would have been much better off saying "can" than "will" carry over. I think you would have been closer to correct had you done so. Holdover is largely incidental in PA freestones, running what? (according the the Commission) 2% or some such IIRC. Forage and habitat/WQ are major factors, but the one I believe makes the most difference is genetics/natural selection in the fish in question.

There are (probably) hundreds of freestone streams in PA with all the chemical and physical attributes to maintain stocked trout through the period from say, late March through November or December. These fish are not all caught, even when they are RT or ST. You can catch them in the late Fall. But let the winter pass and they are virtually gone. They do not have the wherewithal to withstand the normal PA winter. Oh, some do I'm sure. But their numbers are very incidental.
Wild fish do much better because their ancestors survived the same floods and anchor ice and scour events that killed virtually all of last year's stocked fish.

And sure it varies from year to year and from stream to stream, but by and large, holdover is very incidental.

It's about the rigors of natural selection, not prejudice.

This at least would be my view..

On Edit: I think Jack, that maybe you over estimate the value of an ability to adapt to available forage to an overall ability to survive in a stream environment. I think they are very different things and not really all that connected at all.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 17:03


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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From lancaster county
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Quote:
Oh, and I have NEVER been followed by a stocked trout. I think this is a bunch of horsepucky.


go to a stream where the people feed fish off of a bridge or throw pellets at them and they will follow you. now in general stocked fish spook like wild trout. i have seen that, but they are inferior to wild fish. they dont look as bright or pretty and unless its a holdover it us just pale. also they are inferior to fighting, they just arent as strong pound for pound.


i also think the term
"quickly" is relative. they will become more like streambred trout but this takes awhile. they funny thing is educated trout will seldom hit a woolly bugger but wild fish do in less pressured waters.

pressured trout IS a wild card. maybe one reason a fisherman wont catch fish in a hole while another does after he leaves is simpily because.....he left. maybe the fish knew he was there and this gave them lock jaw. then they see him walk away and the next fisherman goes unnoticed. leaving the fish thinking its ok to feed now....the danger is gone.

either way the hardest fish to catch is the one u didnt

Posted on: 2007/6/15 17:51
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Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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2006/9/9 17:18
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Holdover is largely incidental in PA freestones, running what? (according the the Commission) 2% or some such IIRC.


the pa fish comm stocked 2,735,500 this season. at 2 percent that is 54,710 trout that held over in 745 streams if each stream could holdover trout that is 73.4 trout heldover in each stream.
being that not each stream can holdover trout but some can...you can see those that do have alot of holdovers.
54,710 holdovers is alot of fish!

p.s. i know they probably mean 2 percent of the fish from the streams with hold over trout. but even then whats the average put in a stream 500? then 2 percent it would be much lower, but i still belive there are more than we think. i can think of a few streams that have alot of holdover trout, and i mean alot!

Posted on: 2007/6/15 17:59
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Re: Hardest Trout to Catch
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I think this may have been touched on slightly, but the small percentage of holdover trout is a function of the streams they are put into. 95 percent of stocked trout go into marginal waters. They cannot survive the Summer, let alone the winter. The percentages that would hold over in Letort, for instance, I would bet would be exponentially higher than the percentage that hold over in Turtle Creek.

And if I can speculate beyond my expertise into the field of genetics, I doubt that survival instincts can be selected out of a species ever, but certainly not in a couple hundred years or less.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 19:21

Edited by JackM on 2007/6/16 7:25:41
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
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Andromonous rainbow trout, aka steelhead, are harder to bring to hand than any other trout IMHO, largely because eating is usually the last thing on their minds while they are in rivers. And you tend to fish for them in rough early spring weather.

Posted on: 2007/6/15 23:30


Re: Hardest Trout to Catch

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good one ohio. i didnt even think of that, i guess the same could be said for spawning brown trout from the great lakes.

Posted on: 2007/6/16 10:45
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