Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 (2) 3 »


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
Offline
And I'm still at zero for the year....

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:27


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13662
Offline
Yeah, acid rain and AMD are two totally different things. With AMD, aside from the acidity issues, you have a lot of other pollutants which come along for the ride. And of course, abatement efforts are apples and oranges, as one comes from underground and the other from the sky.

Both issues are improving in the state. Acid rain efforts are more gradual, but cover greater areas. AMD efforts are site specific. No change until you attack that discharge, but when you do, the benefits can be quick.

Of course, while those issues improve, development continues to march forward, with all of it's thermal issues, siltation, boom/bust flows, etc.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:32


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
five brookies on an AMD stream not on the nat repro list can seem like a lot.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:33


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
that is a good issue pat: I assumed that less acidic rain would help AMD streams now marginal for trout. that may be right since (I think?) acid spikes with snowmelt make the metals issues (aluminum) in amd streams particularly damaging to trout? so less acidic precipitation might increase trout pops on marginal AMD streams?

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:37


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
I looked at a few articles and since the same level of aluminum is more toxic to trout at lower pH levels, maybe less acidic rain would help the brookies in AMD streams over time.

bear in mind, I flunked chemistry and accounting :)

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:49


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1946
Offline
Quote:

k-bob wrote:
five brookies on an AMD stream not on the nat repro list can seem like a lot.


Indeed…some of my favorite moments Brookie fishing are finding them in places where you don’t think they’d be.

I know a few obvious historic AMD streams with no remediation systems on them that have been repopulated with Brookies from further downstream in the watershed. A couple of them are even what I’d call “pretty good.” I know for a fact one was a very high class C at its last survey and I suspect another is even better than that one. I really like these kinds of streams…shows nature healing and how tough Brookies are.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 8:56


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
yes, go to a class a brookie stream and you expect to find a lot of trout, try an AMD stream not even on the natural reproduction list, and you hope to find a few...

Posted on: 2013/4/15 9:03


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13662
Offline
k-bob, I don't have and hard info regarding streams which suffer from AMD and acid rain simultaneously. But my speculation follows.

My basic thought is that acid rain abatement isn't going to affect the pH of the AMD discharge at all. The acid comes from rock, not from sky. Coal, pyrite, etc. have lots of sulphur, which when exposed to water, creates sulfuric acid.

Near the AMD sites, where the flow from the discharge is a significant % of the total flow, the effects of the AMD acid far outweigh anything regarding acid rain. Acid rain abatement is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound with internal organ damage. You're kind of missing the point.

But in areas, say, where "clean" tribs have diluted the AMD effects (we'll call them "marginally AMD affected"), then yeah, having all of those tribs a little less acidic could mean the dilution effect is greater, and result in a better stream. And realistically, probably all of your AMD trout streams fit this description, as "pure" AMD streams are pretty dead.

Aluminum is merely 1 metal that comes with AMD. Perhaps it's the most significant one, you probably know that better than I. Again, acid rain would not affect the total amount present, it all comes from underground. But the lower the pH, the HIGHER the solubility of aluminum (and most metals) in water. So as the pH rises in a stream, due to dilution from runoff or tribs, MORE of it precipitates out.

Is it worse for the fish if it's precipitated out, or worse in solution? I dunno. And you're not affecting the total amount that precipitates out, you're just affecting WHERE it happens. The primary precipitation area moves upstream.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 9:35


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
copied from the internet of course:

"A reduction in pH (more acidic) may allow the release of toxic metals that would otherwise be absorbed to sediment and essentially removed from the water system. ... For example, a decrease in pH values may release aluminum... Thus, a decrease in pH increases metal availability, lending itself to greater metal uptake by organisms. Metal uptake can cause extreme physiological damage to aquatic life (Connell et al., 1984)."

I think this suggests that less acidic rain might be associated with more brookies in AMD streams that have a few fish now?

Posted on: 2013/4/15 9:57


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13662
Offline
This is pickup to begin with. Acidic water has higher metal solubility. So when it comes in contact with aluminim bearing rock, for instance, it absorbs the aluminum, thus bringing it to the surface. And when a higher pH stream runs in and dilutes the pH, it's supersaturated, and aluminum falls out.

But again, the acid from AMD is picked up underground, from rock. Acid rain doesn't affect it. And the aluminum is also picked up underground. So acid rain doesn't affect that either. Which means, without remediation, the discharge from an AMD site is essentially FIXED in regards to pH and aluminum, and every other metal. Acid rain abatement doesn't change a thing regarding the AMD discharge itself.

That said, ONCE it's on the surface, and it picks up shallow springs, runoff, and non-AMD streams, how acidic those streams are may be a function of acid rain. And thus it can perhaps affect how quickly the stream "recovers" downstream from the discharge. Recovery meaning both a raising of the pH and the metals precipitating out and falling to the stream bottom. Less acid rain may mean that all occurs closer to the AMD discharge, helping downstream areas. A gradual improvement of acid rain could lead to a gradual upstream progression of the boundary between habitable and inhabitable zones. But further improvement becomes more and more difficult as you approach the AMD discharge. You gotta treat the discharge to overcome it.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 10:49


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1809
Offline
"Less acid rain may mean that all occurs closer to the AMD discharge, helping downstream areas. A gradual improvement of acid rain could lead to a gradual upstream progression of the boundary between habitable and inhabitable zones. But further improvement becomes more and more difficult as you approach the AMD discharge. You gotta treat the discharge to overcome it."

My current favorite AMD stream is largely formed by an AMD discharge tunnel about two miles from the nice rocky pools where I fish it. I don't like the flat wide channel betwen the discharge and the pools. Some treatment efforts up there, but it isn't easy.

If the browns can take over Tumbling Run, maybe more brookies will be in the AMD stream!

http://northchick.org/wp-content/uplo ... _MSchorr-JBacker-2006.pdf

Posted on: 2013/4/15 11:21


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2011/7/6 13:48
From Philadelphia PA
Posts: 1708
Offline
Yesterday I had 13 trout get accustomed to my net. Had 19 on for the day using a BH Pheasant #12 or #14. It was great...Hope today is just as good.

Posted on: 2013/4/15 11:29
_________________
"I am respected when I walk into any fly shop. Salespeople wait on me hand and waders. I once tried underwater casting just to see if I could. I am the most admired Fly Fisherman in the world. And when I fly-fish, I use the Orvis Access. Stay Fishing MF


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2010/6/26 11:19
From Along the Lehigh Above the Gap
Posts: 7228
Offline
Caught close to 30 on this fly. Decided to retire it after it stopped floating. Best day of the year so far for me. All fish were over 9 inches as well.

Attach file:



jpg  Henderickson Annihilation.jpg (116.32 KB)
3949_516c57d04409b.jpg 816X612 px

Posted on: 2013/4/15 15:43
_________________
"Four of us wolves, running around the desert together, in Las Vegas, looking for strippers and cocaine. So tonight, I make a toast!"

http://bugflingerandfeatherlasher.blogspot.com/



Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13662
Offline
Congrats, Becker. Stocked or unstocked?

Posted on: 2013/4/15 15:58


Re: First good numbers day of the year

Joined:
2011/7/6 12:30
From Ephrata, PA
Posts: 6561
Offline
Jordon Creek, opening day

Posted on: 2013/4/15 15:59



« 1 (2) 3 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
Will you be fly fishing this autumn?
Yes 95% (139)
No 0% (0)
Thinking about it 4% (6)
_PL_TOTALVOTES
The poll closed at 2014/10/31 17:56
1 Comment





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com