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Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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MKern wrote:
Whether or not a fish's fins will grow back or not depends on how well the "clipper" completes his or her job.
If it is done correctly the fish's fins will grow back within a matter of 3 -4 months.

False. The purpose of fin clipping is to permanently "mark" a fish ofr identification during future surveys. If the clipped fin grew back this method of identification would not be used.

Quote:

If it is a botched job, the scarring will be too severe that they will never grow back. I have caught fish where the clipped fins are infected and swell up like leechs.


Fish have about the same regeneration power as humans.

True. Cut off a limb and it don't grow back. Cut off the tip and you are left with a stub. Think of a fin like a sail on a sail boat. If the bony part (mast) is clipped it will not regenerate. but if the soft tissue (sail) is clipped it may grow back over time or seem to as the size gets larger and the scarring grows out like a fingernail. But Bones and cardelige do not grow back...just like in humans.

Maurice

Posted on: 2006/11/6 9:41
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Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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2006/9/23 0:52
From Lock Haven, PA
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How come in the beginning of the season in the stocked portion of Fishing Creek you will catch about every other trout with messed up fins but if you go this time of year you probably won't catch any? Actually as the season goes on you catch less and less fish with messed up fins. Where do the ones with the clipped fins go and don't tell me they go in peoples frying pans either because a very large portion of the stocked fish make it year to year on Fishing Creek.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 16:42


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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a very large portion of the stocked fish make it year to year on Fishing Creek.


That would be very unusual. From what I have heard even in a C&R stream, stocked trout have a very poor survival rate.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 17:25
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Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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Because the stocked trout don't survive and all that's left are wild fish. They starve to death because they never really learn what food is. There are many studies done on this very subject, one of the first such study done on this was Dr Bachman's study on Spruce Creek.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 17:27


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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John,

I assume you mean the Fishing Creek at Lamar.

Simply put John, stocked trout have very poor survival skills. They die either by predation, harvest or starvation. The ones with the crippled fins are more likely to die than the healthy ones.

Once they stop being fed they have to feed for themselves. It is quite a culture shock. Stocked trout are stocked to be harvested, they are not reared to survive like wild trout. The ones that are (fingerling stockings), are stocked at an age more likely to pick up on the feeding opportunities of the watershed. Even these are predicted to have minimul survival rates based on the numbers stocked.

Survival of the fittest sums it up.

Maurice

Posted on: 2006/11/6 17:30
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Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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2006/9/23 0:52
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Nope I'm talking about the Mill Hall section and the stocked trout do realize what food is trust me I've kept enough in the past (I no longer keep many) and I always check the stomach content and trust me the fish know how to eat. I even found a 4 inch long crayfish in the last one I kept along with about 6 or 7 grannom larva. They know what food is...they survive...just go down to the hole at Benji's in the middle of winter on a warmer day and watch the trout raise...they are almost all stockies. For some reason the fish in that hole do not color up and keep a lot of the stockie characteristics but you won't catch any with poor fins. I know Fishing Creek from Clintondale down to Mill Hall like the back of my hand, hardly a stone unturned...the stocked trout all survive that are not kept by people or other predators. If you want to make a bet I'll take ya fishing and just show ya. This might not be true on every stream but on Fishing Creek it is 100% true.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 20:03


Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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I’m with bigjohn on this one. A little googling shows that a clipped adipose fin will grow back unless its completely removed. Its irrelevant though, because the fish commission doesn’t clip fins on all the stocked trout - too many of them. However, when they survey a stream they usually make two passes and clip fins to distinguished fish caught in the first pass. Seldom do they attempt to distinguish a wild fish from a stocked one when they are both present, so there are undoubtedly wild fish with a clipped fin out there. And as far as a stocked fish’s ability to survive, rainbows don’t do so well but brown trout thrive and have literally taken over many streams.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 21:04


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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Quote:

bigjohn58 wrote:
Nope I'm talking about the Mill Hall section and the stocked trout do realize what food is trust me I've kept enough in the past (I no longer keep many) and I always check the stomach content and trust me the fish know how to eat. I even found a 4 inch long crayfish in the last one I kept along with about 6 or 7 grannom larva. They know what food is...they survive...just go down to the hole at Benji's in the middle of winter on a warmer day and watch the trout raise...they are almost all stockies. For some reason the fish in that hole do not color up and keep a lot of the stockie characteristics but you won't catch any with poor fins. I know Fishing Creek from Clintondale down to Mill Hall like the back of my hand, hardly a stone unturned...the stocked trout all survive that are not kept by people or other predators. If you want to make a bet I'll take ya fishing and just show ya. This might not be true on every stream but on Fishing Creek it is 100% true.


Look John, I ain't saying they can't survive, or don't survive. I am saying that by and large they are not very good at it. Think about the number of fish they stock in that section of crik over the course of a year and how many are there "in the winter" There may be many in the holes and sure they learn how to eat. The stocked browns on our home stream can be some of the pickiest feeders you can fish over. What I am saying is that there are many factors that thin out stocked trout populations. Harvest, predation, over-summer mortality (thermal) Over-winter mortality etc. And that the strongest, healthiest fish survive.

Otherwise...why would the F&BC have to come back each year to restock the streams?

Posted on: 2006/11/6 21:20
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Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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Quote:

Gone4Day wrote:
I’m with bigjohn on this one. A little googling shows that a clipped adipose fin will grow back unless its completely removed. Its irrelevant though, because the fish commission doesn’t clip fins on all the stocked trout - too many of them. However, when they survey a stream they usually make two passes and clip fins to distinguished fish caught in the first pass. Seldom do they attempt to distinguish a wild fish from a stocked one when they are both present, so there are undoubtedly wild fish with a clipped fin out there. And as far as a stocked fish’s ability to survive, rainbows don’t do so well but brown trout thrive and have literally taken over many streams.


No the fish commission doesn't clip fins on all stocked trout. You are right. and they do clip fins on a first pass of a survey to distinguish fish on a second pass. Here they clip "fleshy" fins for regenerative purposes. And they DO distinguish wild from stocked trout when recording results.

They also will clip fingerling trout stockings in wild trout water to estimate the survival rate of the "experiment". For future surveys. Here they clip Adapose fins so it stays distinguisable for over a year.

But I believe the original issue with the fins were the crippled fins of hatchery trout regenerating to be normal. And the Opacity of the fins "clearing" to a translusence of wild trout. I believe this only occurs on the remote island in the carribean....Saint Happenin'

Maurice

Posted on: 2006/11/6 21:32
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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I'm familiar with that section of Fishing Creek. It has quite a high wild trout population. In the late season you'll pick up a stockie here and there but the great majority of the fish are wild browns.

Ask someone from the PFBC sometime. They'll tell you there are loads of wild browns right down into Mill Hall. Or even better, go along with them when they electrofish. Ask them to tell which fish are wild and which are stocked. They can tell the difference. Even when they survey in July, most of the stockies are gone. The great majority of the fish remaining are wild browns. The same is true of other places where they are still stocking good wild trout streams. Kish Creek for example. If you fish there in early season you'll catch lots of stockies. But if you fish later in the year, the great majority of your catch will be wild browns.

About fin clipped fish on streams like Fishing Creek. Most of the fin-clipped fish you see are wild trout, not stocked trout. For the simple reason that when they electrofish in mid-summer, most of the fish they are handling are wild fish. The stockie fish have mostly gone bye-byes.

Posted on: 2006/11/6 21:42


Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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2006/9/9 20:09
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Dear Maurice,

I can't figure out what is so hard for people to understand about this topic?

If they really believe that trout can regrow fins that were reduced to tadpole like nubbins while rubbing in a concrete raceway then maybe they need to do some investigating the regrowth of limbs after industrial accidents? There are lots of success stories there!

A ripped or similarly damaged fin may, and I repeat, may grow back. But a fin that was reduced to rubble will forever remain rubble.

Big John you killed and ate a lot of wild trout coming up, that's the only fair way to put it. I don't blame you for it and I won't chastize you for it either, but you have to admit to what you did.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2006/11/6 23:20


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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Tim

I believe that most "crippled" fins are the result of birth defects rather than from raceway rearing. Numerous fish at the fingerling age when we get them have mangled pectoral fins. Conversely, the vast majority have perfect fins in shape but the opacity from genetics and nutrition are opaque.

Now raggedness and honed caudal fins are typical of large fish raised in concrete raceways. We have a handful of near 2 year old brookies that have perfet fins and tremendous color this fall. They are 14"- 16" and near 2 lbs. One has a pectoral fin that is completely gone. Just a nub the size of a pea. We've had that fish for over a year...no regrowth. All the other fins are perfect in form but opaque. Red or orange but opaque. Its weird, one fish has pink underflanks and one had bright orange. Definitely pretty fish.

Posted on: 2006/11/7 1:38
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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Check out the Photos sections of this site for wild trout ID:

Go to "photos" > "fish" > "Page 5"

Dave Kile "various fish"
# 11 - Stocked
# 12 - Stocked
> Page 6
# 13 - Wild (red spots & blue eye spot)
# 14 - Wild "
# 16 - Wild "

What do you think?

Posted on: 2006/11/7 10:35


Re: FYI - wild trout ID

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2006/10/2 10:08
From Westmoreland County (near fairgrounds)
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The two passes for the stream survey and the fin clipping on the first pass allow the commission to use the capture-recapture statistical technique to estimate the true population of trout in the stream.

Lets say you capture and mark (fin clip) 100 fish on the first pass, the next day you do a second pass and capture 80 fish. You find that 30 of the 80 have the fresh fin clip from the day before. So the marked fish represent 37.5% of the total population (30/80), and the estimate of the total population is 100 (the # of marked fish) divided by 0.375 (the fraction of fish found marked in the second survey) equals 267 fish on this section of stream.

One can add some more sophisticated modeling to account for departures from certain assumptions of the methodology, but that is the basic technique.

Posted on: 2006/11/7 10:59


Re: FYI - wild trout ID
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2006/9/9 9:29
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Quote:

albatross wrote:
.... Lets say you capture and mark (fin clip) 100 fish on the first pass, the next day you do a second pass and capture 80 fish. You find that 30 of the 80 have the fresh fin clip from the day before. So the marked fish represent 37.5% of the total population (30/80), and the estimate of the total population is 100 (the # of marked fish) divided by 0.375 (the fraction of fish found marked in the second survey) equals 267 fish on this section of stream.


No offense, but-- huh?

Posted on: 2006/11/7 11:03
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