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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/18 8:28
From Attitudinally, one mile south of Lake LeBoeuf
Posts: 874
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>>Instead of easements, I wonder if it would be easier to tailor the Clean and Green laws. For those who don't know, these laws lower the property taxes on land if the owners meet certain criteria. If the property ceases to meet the requirements, the owner has to pay back the difference with interest.

I wonder if there is some way the laws could be changed to make it more appealing for riparian property owners to enter their property into the program.>>

My prefenece would still be easements, but you make an excellent point, Ian. And one I had forgotten about.

I'm old enough to remember the Hammermill Paper debacle back in the late 70's. Hammermill was a big user of Clean and Green for tax relief purposes and as a result, they were an excellent public citizen so far as access to their properties was concerned. And they held pretty significant tracts with a lot of small trout water on it through much of the state. When Carl Ichan drove Hammermill into the arms of International Paper and IP came into ownership of all this land, much of this changed and there was a loss of quit a bit of access. IP's policy was to lease to clubs which they do extensiely in their base in the US southeast. Gradually, through a lot of effort by sportsmen's orgs and PA's resource agencies, much of what was lost was regained, at least for angler use.

I'd certainly agree that tax abatement incentives should be a part of the mix. It's just that the way things seem to be headed, I'd find more comfort in a a legally binding easement program..

Posted on: 2007/5/21 14:02


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/16 10:36
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Db & SRC are masters at manipulation, check and see how they manupulate the various charatible organizations to enhance their image, like the Redbone Classic, while those organizations are great DB gets all that fine publicly without hardly any out of pocket expense. It IS NOT pleasant to see both Trout Unlimited and SRC with Barry & Kathy Becks mugs all over the pages, if the Becks are that hard up for coin it is time to get new writers or photographers at minimum it is not good for Trout Unlimited to promote the Becks. It is posssible that the trout on the cover of Trout is one of DBs pellet puppies, photographed by the Becks, DB would love that!!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:01


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6485
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omg lj that thought makes me sick to my stomach. if the becks are hard up for cash maybe they should revoke thier src membership saving themselves 85,000.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:38
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
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The CAP program gets my vote. Matching dollars, an infastructure to find and buy land, and the backing of the state. All of the other methods are nice and should be pursued but they all rely on landowners being somewhat generous. Only ownership preserves permanat public access and habitat protection and is not affected by the whims of a landowner, legislature, or judge.

I say lets raise money for CAP.

Its time we start talking with our wallets. I will see if I can use my Missionfish Account on ebay to donate to CAP. We should distribute CAP donation forms on streams and consider selling items and services to raise money for it.

Thanks for the link, as an out-of state liscence purchaser, I don't get a regs booklet with my liscence.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:38


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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iam with ohio on that! im thinking about raising some money for CAP. ive been flirting with someideas here and im gonna try to work out the details. im gonna donate when ever i can. this is a great program and it goes to the heart of the problem. if donny beaver truely cared about angler access on pennsylvania water. we would donate too.
they dont give you a booklet? so you get a lisence but they just expect you to know the regs. nice.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:45
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Tim,

I really do hope that fish are seen as a public commodity. In Ohio, you can fish any stream from a boat, as soon as you step out you are tresspassing. In Texas, deer are considered private and not public property. There is very little public hunting land. I just don't have enough faith in the navigable waters laws to protect our access to fishing over the long term.

I hate to see it come to a land grabbing contest, but from what I have seen with hunting leases here in Ohio, I can't help but think there will be little public access for hunting and fishing on private land for free in the future.

We also need to urge landowners to donate land to the public, this is another strategy.

I realize this may make the problem worse in the short term, but I feel its the only long term solution.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:49


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Its my obligation to know the regs, whether they give me a booklet or not. I could always buy my liscence in PA. Just easier to do it online or at a local store.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:52


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6485
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oh i see, i thought you were getting it in pa. my bad
oh and in regaurd to what ohio said. that is why i said we should take a moment to be thankful for what we do have. god bless sgl(thanks to the hunters) and god bless nature preserves. most of those is what ohio was taking about with land owners donating land. some of the ones here in sepa provide the most solitude and pleasurable fishing experience for wild trout. for everyone! i thank any landowner that has done this....you are a true conservationist and did something for everyone and future generations. DB could learn something from these people.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 17:54
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 16:33
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Well you have to admit that DB is winning the PR war. From 50thousand feet everything he says sounds good. Good for the sport, good for the trout and good for the fisherman. Like he was just out flying a kite one day and SHAZAM!! Gets this idea how to save the sport through selfless acts. Sure I embilished but not much more than what is being written about the guy. It is kind of disillusioning to see how much of the sport is sympathetic to him. We are protrayed as the dumb locals who are too busy dragging our knuckles to beable to manage a resource.

Sory Tim I stand by my compensation for access view. If you have a large tract of land you are going to manage it effectively in such away that you take advantage of its attributes. If it is on primo trout water that is definantly in the equation. Some of us are knuckle draggers and I wouldn't want them on my property. They need some incentive other than altruism to let us Joes on their turf. I have run people out of my property. I have also permitted people to use it. A system (like the red tag farms for deer hunting) Lets the public know who will let them play and gives the farm some incentive to let the public in.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 20:38


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/16 10:36
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Salve, they can't get there 85,000 back if the haven't given it!! Another thought, a lot of these folks for all pratical purposes "got in free"" to clubs like Spring Ridge with the tax breaks for the obscenly wealthy guys. The Yellowstone Club dues are $250,000.00, homes in the guarded community are to 12 million.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:28


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6485
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no but they wouldnt have to pay it the next year. also the fee is going up next year oh wait i see what your saying. they never paid....good god!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:51
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2195
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Dear ryan, and everybody else who wants to buy the land,

Why in God's name would you agree to purchase something that you already own? We, you and I, as public citizens of the State of Pennsylvania own all the fish and animals of this State. They are held in trust for us by the Commonwealth.

I ain't paying for something that is already mine to begin with. You can go this on your own, cause I'm not paying to trout fish, period. I seriously can't believe that people actually think this is
a good idea? A club with 100 members is a terrible thing but one with 10,000 is a good thing? BS, it's still a club and it is nothing more than a way to privatize fishing rights and access. It's a bad idea all the way around and I want no part of it. I wouldn't want any part of it even if i had money coming out my wahzoo which I don't. We fought a war to leave England's control. why go back?

Easements are the only way to go. They are a one and done thing and are irrevocable even if the land changes hands because they are written into the deed. No renegotiation, no reconsidering things, you make a decision, take your cash and live with the consequences forever and ever. It's so simple and that is why it will never fly in PA, but that is the only thing I'll sign on for.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2007/5/21 21:59


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Quote:
I think that more effective than land and easement acquisition would be a public relations and volunteer outreach campaign to inspire landowners to share their stream access and inspire anglers to act gratefully by respecting privacy and cleaning up their acts.


Quote:
It could be appropriately called the SHARE OUR STREAMS COALITION. Donations could still be a component, but this would be leveraged by volunteerism.


The more I think about it the more I think Jack is spot on with this approach.

I'm going to work on developing a plan for a "stream steward" program based on this idea. I've already got ideas to develop/sell "stream steward" hats and holiday cards to raise money and awareness and thank landowners who allow access. Imagine how you would feel as a landowner if you had a recognizable group of people picking up trash on your property, improving the stream, and sending you holiday cards to say thank you. The "stream steward" would raise money, but more importantly set an example of good sportmanship and landowner respect on the stream. A stream steward could be any law-abiding fly, spin, or bait fisherman or any non-fisherman who enjoys streamside habitat.

The hat would be the symbol of the stream steward.

Money would go to the CAP program, with a specific request for the money to go to streams. Stewards would encourage donations to and sell items (flies/lures) streamside to raise money for CAP.

I would buy the hats/cards myself and sell them on ebay with 50-80% proceeds going to CAP through a Missionfish Account. (A service which facilitates donations to non-profits through ebay.)

This program would not:

1) Directly compensate landowners
2) Advocate for regulation changes
3) Engage in legal action against landowners

The "Share Our Streams Stewardship Program" would treat landowners as our ally and would respect their right to post land.

I would need help developin a logo for this project.

Any thoughts?

Posted on: 2007/5/21 22:11


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6485
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maybe a logo of two hands shaking with those cat tails on either side to signify wetlands?
i dunno but that is a really good idea ohio and jack. over regulations and other things, this should be our number one priority. i think its time to prove beaver wrong.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 22:16
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2007/3/21 22:50
Posts: 100
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Nicely put Tim! I can go to a private trout pond and catch as many trout and trophies as I want as long as I pay for them, same thing with SRC. You know being semi-new to the skill and art of fly-fishing I have been tempted to fish the Lil J at SRC but yet I can't convince myself to do it. Why, you may ask because I can go 100 yards below my house and fish for fish that are 20+ inches but are pellet fed. I started fly fishing because I was tired of catching trout on powerbait, spinners or anything and everything else, this was and still is a new concept to me. I am pleased when I go to a stream and catch 1 or 2 fish that are wild or natives in one evening. I could go to the stream behind my house use pellets and catch fish all evening, it's not the same! Honestly there is something special to me about catching a fish that is 4,5, or 6 inches that makes that fish special. If you notice (photos) I took several pictures of such trout, I have caught my share of big trout and nothing compares!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 23:03



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