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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:20
Posts: 235
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Beaver has been on a very vocal and very disingenuous PR campaign ever since he lost in court.

First of all, he's acting as if access to the streams he buys is being "preserved" when in fact, for most anglers that access is being lost. He defends that by saying the stretches he buys were all private before he bought them. That's true, but some of them were open to the public through the generosity of the landowner. And even those stretches that were closed might have opened up again if purchased by someone new who didn't have a commerical interest in keeping it closed (it does happen).

Which brings me to point #2. What Beaver has done by buying and leasing lots of prime limestone water is to accelerate the process of turning access to such waters into a marketable commodity. By offering landowners a way to "monetize" the value of their streams, Beaver decreases the likelihood that they will give it away, as used to be common.

Third, as a "pioneer" of this business model, Beaver is both setting an example for other businesses to follow, and creating an "arms race" where other guides services, lodges, etc. may feel the need to lease of buy access in order to avoid being shut out of the best waters.

In all those ways, Beaver is creating or at least greatly accelerating the problem he is publicly bemoaning. Its very cynical. I am annoyed, but not surprised, to see F&S buying into it.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:06


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/9 16:33
Posts: 681
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Little Juniatta that is an excellent idea! Anybody w/ stream access can submit their name and plot plan to the PAFBC if they want to participate. A seperate license or stamp is sold to access those properties and the money recieved for the stamp would be divided by the land owners. The only problem then is that EVERY land owner would post because they would want a piece of the action I guess. Maybe it should be only on designated streams where access is a problem. I know I would pay for it! I mean why not you pay for everything else.

Win/win.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:13


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/11/7 8:32
From South West FL
Posts: 260
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Quote:

Will wrote:
I am annoyed, but not surprised, to see F&S buying into it.


I have lost a lot of respect for Field and Stream for many other reasons other than this. Check out their website some time and read the "forum". It's garbage. Field and Stream has stepped on many toes with some of their publications and this is no exception. I cancelled my subscription a while ago.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:17


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/16 10:36
Posts: 6962
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Mr wild trout stream protecter wants to build houses above the Little J, up on that hill above the stream and have the sewage drain filelds in the flood plain of the river, which is already overly enriched with nutrients. I would think that Dr Bachman the trout researcher would say that with the overabundance of pellet fish, that there would be few if any wild trout in the SRC section (of any of the SRC waters). I really don't like the idea that if you do catch a big Brown in the river, that it could be one of the dumbass pellet fish and not a wild or fingerling raised trout.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:19


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2183
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Dear Little Juniata,

I don't know why you keep sounding the horn and calling for landowner compensation? It's a ridiculous idea for the public to have to pay for access to what already belongs to them, as in fish.

Not one single fish alive in a stream in Pennsylvania belongs to the landowner, they all belong to the public. If beaver hadn't already started trying to convince people they should be paid to allow people access to the fish that the public already owns no one would even think to do it.

That is why Beaver has been succesful, he has been able to appeal to people's inate sense of greed. We absolutely do not need more people buying access, lest it turn into a bidding war which is what always happens when two or more people want the same property.

A landowner has the right to post his/her property and I won't dispute that one bit. They do not have the right to charge people to access the people's own fish. Post it and close it or leave it open, those are the only two choices that make any sense. Stop giving people ideas that they should be paid. What's next, charging people to stop and look at deer or to take a picture of a barn framed against a backdrop of fall colors?

If you want pay to play trout fishing you can have it but I won't pay one thin dime to go trout fishing today or in the future. It's not that important to me and I'll wager that if it does come to pass you will find that it's not that important to most people either.

Change the laws in PA and allow for the purchase of permanent easements if you want to, but stop saying we need to compensate landowners. It's a terrible idea that will create far more problems than it will ever solve.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:24


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/21 0:02
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 4269
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Guys:

I've been fly fishing for 25 year, and have wet a line pretty much in every area of the state.
I have seen my share of stream sections get posted, and in almost every instance, it's because of people like Beaver buying or leasing it to make money. But he claims he's just trying to preserve things - BS!
I really can't remember anywhere being posted because of a housing development, or any other reason, besides greed.
As for organizing a group to raise funds for land access, it's pretty tough for us average joe's to compete with the likes of Beaver.
I remember when the Espy farm section of the little juniata first got posted in 1990, Charlie Meck tried to form a such a group.
It must not have gotten too far though - I didn't hear anything about it shortly afterwards. Of course, that was before the internet. A medium like this would certainly help things a lot.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 9:41


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out
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Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22229
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I think that more effective than land and easement acquisition would be a public relations and volunteer outreach campaign to inspire landowners to share their stream access and inspire anglers to act gratefully by respecting privacy and cleaning up their acts.

It could be appropriately called the SHARE OUR STREAMS COALITION. Donations could still be a component, but this would be leveraged by volunteerism.

I recognize that individual groups and organizations already have this type of effort as a part of their usual activities, local TU's come immediately to mind, but perhaps an organized and concerted effort statewide, with assitance of PFBC, DCNR and DEP would have a broader and more lasting impact.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 10:05
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Tim,

You bring up some really good points. Paying for water is very much a double edged sword.

However, it would be nice to have an organization that could buy land and accept land and monetary donations to preserve access and habitat forever. I look at Hemlock Creek and Porcupine Creek think it would be great to do a simular thing for other streams, especially those like the central PA limestoners which are, at least for now, public treasures.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 10:50


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

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2006/9/16 10:36
Posts: 6962
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Well guys it is Econ 101, if you have a commodity, you should capitalize on it, it is survival. So the landowner is going to "FINALLY" after eons of time, going to get his due, guides, motels, gas stations, tackle dealers PFBC and many others make money from the landowners streams so why shouldn't he? It will either be a hundred guys at $10,000.00 per year or a five hundred guys at $200.00 per year, take your pick. Stocked streams would command lesser amounts premimum streams premimum amounts. Would you pay $100.00 bucks a year to fish the Rothrock water on the Little Juniata if the decision was either that or sell the water to a high-end fishing club? You bought all your "stuff" (clothes, car, shoes, etc etc) when you go to the movies, then you have to pay to get in, relate that to fishing!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 11:06


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/13 12:42
From Altoona, PA
Posts: 2259
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Quote:

OhioOutdoorsman wrote:
Padraic,

I am not in any way calling out or criticizing this website.....just wondering if the internet could be used as a fundraising tool. PAFF is probably not the most appropriate place for this. PAFF is a wonderful website, and sounds like it is like most forums, is a profitless labor of love for those involved.


I know you weren't criticizing the site. I think DB was. And he was totally off base doing so. In fact, I think there might be a breare rabbit thing going on. I wonder if he would like to see a group try to use a site like this to try to keep a stream open, and when they fail he can point to the experiment and say "See I am the only workable solution"

Posted on: 2007/5/21 11:43
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Padraic
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6435
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im callin him out! seems to me that ever since he lost the little j case he has been doing alot of p&r trying to get sympathy and justification for his actions. and he is apealing the case asking the state to prove they own the streambed! what a money grubbing pig hiding behind the face of a conservationist. i was on the website and they were saying that they dont make money! they have over 120 members now and they spend 900,000 dollars a year to maintain land and streams, raise pellet feed fish, hire guides and the whole 9 yards. under my calculations 85,000 dollars times 120 is alot more 900,000. furthermore, i wonder how many of those streams have enough wild trout in them to be a class a section, but they wanna stock those pellet feed hogs over them. good job donny!
doing it for the kids! whos kids, george bush's kids? i dont see my kids, or grandchildren or greatgrandchilden ever being able to afford your member fees so they can fish for trout buddy. dont tell me your doing it for the kids! maybe your kids because the will have the oppurtunity to be as greedy as you are!
funny thing is donny, if you would join forces with TU then you wouldnt have to "spend so much money" on stream restoration. in fact you could have gotten grants and volunteers to help with all that stuff.....oh yeah i forgot that would require that the land be opened up to all flyfisherman not just your members. i heard that donny tried to lease a part of lititz run in the millport conservancy once. lynn didnt go for it....because TU is a non pressure organization that allows her to not participate at anytime. i guess donnys contracts are lockin in for so long.
trust me donny it bothers me a little that you think the average joe on this website does nothing but "bitch" about you. truth is i dont think about you hardly at all. its not worth the small amount of brain power to think of it. but it bothers me that you think thats all we do, and that we are "ineffective". most members here are tu members. we work hard to restore wild trout streams and water quality to EVERYONE! including you. can you say the same?
also it is through discussions on here we can detirmine what fisheries need help. we get insight on how to make them better from tu people from every county. we talk about patterns and techniques. and if we trust the person full-heartedly places to go and enjoy a day on the stream. UNLIKE you we have the ability to have a community that is proud to be apart of the flyfishing experince. your members hide, like yourself and use the media to defend or justify your actions.
so please stop calling yourself a conservationist and start just calling yourself an outfitter!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 11:51
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/18 8:28
From Attitudinally, one mile south of Lake LeBoeuf
Posts: 855
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>>Beaver is creating or at least greatly accelerating the problem he is publicly bemoaning.>>

Will nails it...

I've seen some doozies over the years, but I can't really ever recall somebody trying so hard and in sucha transparently shameless manner to put lipstick on a pig, and in full view of the world at that.

Mr. Beaver has decided he has seen the future and funamentally, is using his alleged vision to hasten the priviatization of Pennsylvania waters. But where is the evidence that his vision of the future is real? That's the most amazing part of this entire masked ball. He himself is creating it every day.

It's like something out of Kafka....

My view is that the key to this is not in trying to match people like Beaver dollar for dollar. Pennsylvania needs to rev up a strong and active easement program, even it it is 50 years late and even if, for the sake of better liquidity, it means funamental changes in the structure and funding of the Commission. Another big part of the answer, IMO, is in supporting existing conservacies and other organizations with a history or willingness to engage in private/public land acquisition partnerships. Because of the way these organizations routinely work, one dollar sent their way is a match for 20 of those from folks like Beaver.

But above all, I simply cannot believe the "up is down and down is sideways" audacity of this guy in what he is saying. If the stakes were not so high and if people weren't actually getting sucked into buying Beaver's peculiar and convoluted reasoning, it would be hilarious.

But the stakes are high and people are getting sucked in. So, it isn't funny.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 12:07


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6435
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Quote:
Spring Ridge members currently have exclusive access to about 30 miles of legendary trout waters, and the club is adding several miles of great trout fishing in the Poconos barely two hours from Manhattan, plus outstanding steelhead fishing near Lake Erie. All of the club’s waters began as some of the best in eastern America, and they’ve been sculpted to become and remain world-class.


great so now they are gonna come up to my favorite neck of the woods. probably on the delaware. becareful donny thats navigable water!

Posted on: 2007/5/21 12:30
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Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2006/9/9 20:09
From Harrisburg
Posts: 2183
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Dear Sal,

I think Beaver has some property over in Monroe County.

He did briefly control the lower couple of miles of Mud Run but he has since abandoned that property and it is under the control of another club as it has been for many many years.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

Posted on: 2007/5/21 12:57


Re: Donny Beaver and Field and Stream call us out

Joined:
2007/1/22 13:49
From Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 411
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Instead of easements, I wonder if it would be easier to tailor the Clean and Green laws. For those who don't know, these laws lower the property taxes on land if the owners meet certain criteria. If the property ceases to meet the requirements, the owner has to pay back the difference with interest.

I wonder if there is some way the laws could be changed to make it more appealing for riparian property owners to enter their property into the program.

Posted on: 2007/5/21 13:37



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