Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 ... 3 4 5 (6) 7 8 9 ... 21 »


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2009/2/19 19:59
From Mont Co, Pa
Posts: 2034
Offline
Quote:

jayL wrote:
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
So, the big question that I pose is where did all of the native/wild trout go? I'm all ears.


Beyond jack's point about the cyclical nature of fish populations, I'm unconvinced that they went anywhere. Your results have no statistical significance whatsoever.

That seems to be your stock response. The cyclical nature of this population would have reversed itself in this span of time. What, you think these cycles go on for 6 year periods? Spare me!

Posted on: 2009/3/11 11:35
_________________
Protect the resource, let them go!


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/9/18 8:28
From Attitudinally, one mile south of Lake LeBoeuf
Posts: 871
Offline
>>The West Branch of Fishing Creek (Class A Wild Trout Stream), which I started fishing in 2002, is only influenced by what goes on upstream of it's mouth, which is it's headwaters that are on nothing but SGL's 13. Acidity doesn't travel upstream. There's nothing going on, and there has been nothing going on up in those Game Lands to effect the acidity of that section of stream.>>

Does it ever rain in the Game Lands in question?


Remember, Mike said that he had been aware through conversations with other AFM's of acid precipitation problems in the watershed. These sorts of thing do not require that anything be "going on" other than rainfall below a certain Ph falling on a geology with a diminished or absent buffering capacity.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 11:55


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6292
Offline
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
Quote:

Mike wrote:

As for the West Branch of Fishing Creek is concerned, going back as far as the late 1970's I have known it as a stream with acid precipitation problems (through general conversations with its fisheries managers and following our own fishing trips to the stream). The precip problems have a history of negatively affecting its trout populaiton.

The West Branch of Fishing Creek (Class A Wild Trout Stream), which I started fishing in 2002, is only influenced by what goes on upstream of it's mouth, which is it's headwaters that are on nothing but SGL's 13. Acidity doesn't travel upstream. There's nothing going on, and there has been nothing going on up in those Game Lands to effect the acidity of that section of stream.

Now, when I started fishing this stretch of stream in '02, starting 2 miles upstream of the SGL gate in Emmons, where I knew I was up and away from any stocked portion of this stream, up to and past Hemlock Run, I was routinely catching 15-20 legal (I never counted non legals) wild/native trout per trip. Some real nice ones too, I might add! I was releasing all of them.
Since that time, each year I have watched the fishing get progressively worse. My fish numbers kept falling, but the sheer beauty of that stream kept me comming back never the less. Now again, keep in mind, there's nothing going on up in those Game Lands (mining/acid) or else the fishing wouldn't have been what it was in the beginning of the 2000's. So, the big question that I pose is where did all of the native/wild trout go? I'm all ears.


The reference was not to mine drainage, but to acid precipitation (acid rain) in areas with rocks and soils with a low buffering capacity.

But that is a problem on the EAST BRANCH, not on the West Branch. And even in the East Branch drainage, where the buffering and fertility is much lower than in the West Branch, you can find good brook trout fishing if you explore.

The West Branch is fairly fertile, and well buffered, for a small freestone stream. PFBC reports show pH 6.8. And there are wild browns up there, and those are not found in acid rain victim streams.

And if the populations were limited because it was an acid rain victim, they wouldn't be stocking hatchery trout, because hatchery trout are far more vulnerable to acidified conditions than native brook trout. Hatchery trout will die in waters where brookies thrive.

The PFBC managers have recommended taking the West Branch off the stocking list up in the SGL. Apparently politics over-ruled that. This is an example of very poor management of our wild trout fisheries.

There are some poor habitat sections because of historical stream alterations. Good fisheries management would mean: fixing the physical habitat in those stretches, ending stocking, and making it C&R. Then you would see the realization of the potential of that stream. Right now it's a shadow of what it could be.

And managing things that way would save the time, fuel, and money required to stock hatchery trout on top of wild trout way up that narrow bumpy road.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 12:04


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19931
Offline
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
Quote:

jayL wrote:
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
So, the big question that I pose is where did all of the native/wild trout go? I'm all ears.


Beyond jack's point about the cyclical nature of fish populations, I'm unconvinced that they went anywhere. Your results have no statistical significance whatsoever.

That seems to be your stock response. The cyclical nature of this population would have reversed itself in this span of time. What, you think these cycles go on for 6 year periods? Spare me!


It hasn't been addressed yet.

I don't wish to postulate about the population numbers game, because I still have seen no formal evidence of any population decline. The broken record spins...

Posted on: 2009/3/11 12:11


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6292
Offline
Does anyone have evidence that trout populations are cyclical?

Posted on: 2009/3/11 12:24


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19931
Offline
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Does anyone have evidence that trout populations are cyclical?


At work, so no time to read it all, but I'm guessing this will help.

Given the cyclical nature of environmental factors, as well as the (both mathematical and practical) cyclical behavior of a population attempting to attain homeostasis (a word I learned from Pauly Shore's Biodome), I think it's a logical conclusion.

But I write software, and only harass fish for enjoyment. What do I know? I'm certainly not set on this idea, but it seems to make sense to me. I wouldn't be heartbroken if proven wrong, and would happily apologize and laugh at the irony of my half-assed arguments in that case.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 12:30


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22424
Offline
Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Does anyone have evidence that trout populations are cyclical?


Bushkill Survey


Monacacy Survey


Penns Survey



From this: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/fi ... afm/2004/3_10-18slate.htm

This dataset provides a good example of the natural fluctuations fish populations commonly undergo. When favorable conditions are present, populations usually have a “boom” year with lower annual mortality and higher reproductive success, but when conditions degrade, populations may have a “bust” year characterized by higher annual mortality and lower reproductive success. Most fluctuations can usually be attributed to environmental factors such as acidic episodes, floods, droughts, changes in the availability of instream habitat, and changes in the forage base. If conditions degrade for a short period, most fish populations can rebound relatively quickly once conditions become more favorable. However, severe, prolonged disturbances and degradations require longer recovery periods.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 13:05
_________________
Peace, Tony


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13629
Offline
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
The cyclical nature of this population would have reversed itself in this span of time. What, you think these cycles go on for 6 year periods? Spare me!


It would appear that they last anywhere from 4 to 8 years. And yes, trout become educated. Sometimes it takes years. I've fished places that have been C&R for a couple decades and the fish are what the locals call "very educated". They are definitely selective. I'm not sure I see that as a bad thing. I guess some people don't like to put any effort into fishing.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 13:16


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13595
Offline
I'm like Jay, I have no scientific fact base. I don't know if cyclical is the right term, but they are certainly naturally variable and unstable, as Jack's data suggests. It could be cycles, or it could be just responding to other factors (which themselves may be random or cyclical). Get a bad summer, it might be 3 or 4 years before the population recovers, get another bad summer in that time frame, and it might be 6 years. The following is from my "gut feelings." I am not a biologist and haven't studied this extensively, but I am a scientist and understand the complexities at least a little.

As bad summers go, the fish can die from low water, or low oxygen. But thats not what usually happens. Usually the water gets low enough where the fish lose access to the cover on the edges where they usually live, and are isolated in pools with no cover. Then predation does the killing, raccoons and such. What you'll find in these situations is in the deepest, most protected pools there's still fish. But in all those riffles and smaller pools you'll lose a sizable percentage, and it may be years before the fish repopulate the whole stream to their former abundance. Another thing that can happen is that stockies, or even wild browns, from somewhere downstream invade, searching for cool water in a worse than average summer, and that can have an effect.

Acid doesn't have to come from a mine. Mine acid is indeed a huge problem, but its effects are usually very obvious and severe. But acid rain, on the other hand, is a horse of a different color. Its pretty much the same over any given region, though some regions of the state are worse than others. But the effects on the stream vary widely and depend a lot on the local natural geology, such as the buffering capabilities of the soil and/or rock. There's also iron pyrite, which forms an acid when it touches water. Its a pretty common mineral, perhaps even a rockslide or something could expose some of it, or a new fissure in a subsurface rock allows a major underground spring to contact it.

Heck, maybe an outbreak of gypsy moths deforested areas and warmed the water. Maybe the state sprayed them, and it had an effect on the water quality.

While overharvest is a possibility, there are probably 20 other factors that are more likely. Even combinations of things can hurt. Like with acid rain, maybe its not so hard on the fish so long as a few springs that are well buffered are supplying generous water. But get a bad summer, where those better springs shut down, and then get a whopping dose of acid rain all at once, and suddenly the stream's banks are full of acid rain runoff with none of the buffered springs entering. Thats a combination of a bad summer and acid rain....

Again, I am not saying any of this happened on your stream. I am simply saying that you can't just sit back and assume overharvest is the issue just because you don't see any other obvious human induced problems. There are literally thousands of scenarios which affect the wild trout population, and only a few are obvious.

I think one of the major factors is the weather related water conditions during spawning season, and maybe even as the eggs hatch. You certainly get strong year classes and weak ones, one would have to think the environment has something to do with that.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 13:16


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22424
Offline
You're right "cyclical" is a bad term, because there is no regularity. It is based upon environmental factors, but often the effect isn't seen for some time following the events. Typically, the development of young-of-year trout is adversely or positively effected (as explained briefly in the piece I quoted above).

What you can readily observe on just about any graphical representation of wild trout populations is a "hills and valleys" progression across time. Some times the hills are sharp and other times more like a mound and valley might be deep and narrow or wide and shallow. And, gosh darnit, occasionally you will see the population stable for a few years in a row.

Acid rain can fluctuate in intensity as can buffering capacity. Acidic moisture can accumulate in snow pack and melt slowly enough to be buffered well, or too quickly to do so. As pcray alludes to, one would literally have to account for a dozen or more factors and historical events to accurate predict or explain population fluctuations. What surprises me (slightly) is how people think that harvest alone is the culprit with very little, if any, evidence that this is the case. I readily accept harvest as an issue in trout populations only on stocked streams.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 13:23
_________________
Peace, Tony


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6460
Offline
ive seen the letort browns be very cynical over my presentations to them. Does that count

All joking aside. I stick by my EBTJV post.
Quote:
I readily accept harvest as an issue in trout populations only on stocked streams.


Thats still a heck of a lot of streams.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 13:41
_________________
http://cvtu.homestead.com/





Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6292
Offline
Quote:

JackM wrote:
You're right "cyclical" is a bad term, because there is no regularity. .[/b]


Right. The populations fluctuate, which is very different than being cyclical.

Things like floods, droughts, winter kill, train wrecks, PennDot pouring wet concrete down a sinkhole feeding a major spring, and train wrecks dumping chemicals in streams knock down populations, then they recover, then later on something else knocks the population down again, etc. But those events are occur randomly, not on a regular schedule.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 14:17


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22424
Offline
It doesn't have to be a flood or a drought to have an impact. Likewise, as much as these natural events "knock the population down" they also "knock the population upward." But calling it cyclical is more descriptive, I think, than calling it random because of how the population responds.

If you examine the graphs, you will see that generally, the population drops gradually and rises gradually over time rather than up and down suddenly from year to year.

In any case, as long as you don't blame the population swings on harvest without any supporting evidence, I have no beef with your account, though you do seem to suggest that only traumatic events cause fluctuations, which I don't believe is true.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 14:33
_________________
Peace, Tony


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2009/2/19 19:59
From Mont Co, Pa
Posts: 2034
Offline
I'd love to know if the F&B Com did any electro shock studies of various sections of the WB of Fishing Creek before they continued stocking trout further up that stream? I think this would answer some of questions regarding the wild/native populations of trout, or lack there of, in this particular stream.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 14:50
_________________
Protect the resource, let them go!


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19931
Offline
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
I'd love to know if the F&B Com did any electro shock studies of various sections of the WB of Fishing Creek before they continued stocking trout further up that stream? I think this would answer some of questions regarding the wild/native populations of trout, or lack there of, in this particular stream.


Yes, it would.

Posted on: 2009/3/11 14:52



« 1 ... 3 4 5 (6) 7 8 9 ... 21 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
Will you be fly fishing this autumn?
Yes
No
Thinking about it
_PL_TOTALVOTES
The poll will close at 2014/10/31 17:56
1 Comment





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com