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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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2009/2/19 19:59
From Mont Co, Pa
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As I look/read back from when I started this thread, I realize a few important things. The most important of all I think, is there are many on board who really do care about our native/wild trout. And that can only be seen as a good thing. I also came to understand that (as I expected and mentioned) not everyone will see things the same way that I do. Differing opinions open up peoples minds to other options. That's also a good thing. And lastly, I think this thread made most people aware that there is indeed an issue with these special trout and the streams they inhabit.

Yes, on a few occasions we got off on other slightly unrelated subjects, but that is typical of such a lenghty thread. The main thing is many people provided great information to bolster their points of view. That's a great way for all of us to learn! And yes, I learned a lot during the course of this thread. Perhaps it didn't make me the most popular person whith any number of forum members, but if nothing else, I'm happy with the attention it brought to these jewels that we call the "native brookie".

Posted on: 2009/3/26 11:26
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Yep i can see we do feel the same about the subject Dave. I also agree with all your points in blue.

As far as arguing both sides, I suppose i do. But then again as we elduded to, blanket regs wont work so both sides have thier point.

I used to be one the diehard C&R, no harvest, fly-fishing only guys. I used to be as far to that side as anyone can get. Education is a great thing and now im more in the middle. Ill admit im still alil on the side of the C&R guys, but not like i was. I look forward to the day the wild brookie gets some real attention, but its going to take more than just the C&R guys doing it.

p.s. I like new records

Posted on: 2009/3/26 12:31
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
The biggest influence of panfish I've seen is the bass population. If you have a pond with panfish and no bass, you'll have tiny panfish. Put a few bass in there and you'll find your panfish size goes way up. There's even a known ratio of panfish/bass, but I have to admit I don't know it. Dave, I have a feeling you might?


There isn't a single ratio of bas to panfish. It depends on how the population evolved. If you start with a pond with no fish and introduce panfish first. Then add some bass later you will get a high percentage of panfish and stunted bass. If you put some other minnows in, then the bass, then the panfish. You will get larger bass and a more balanced population of panfish of medium size. I'm fighting this now on a pond my aunt has. Initially there were 6 pound bass and a very balanced panfish population. A farmer upstream had a insecticide leak and killed all the fish. After that my uncle put panfish in first and the next year some 1 -2 pound bass. Now five years later there are no bass larger than 3 pounds but lots of giant pan fish. I brought a biologist in to figure out what to do. He suggested retonone the whole thing and start over.

The reason for the two different balances of panfish to bass is that if the panfish get too big for smaller bass to eat they over populate and stunt the bass. If the bass can get larger before the panfish get going they can eat the larger panfish and keep the overall population in check.

BTW I see no reason your theory about culling trout would not apply to brookies if the stream is large enough to support many fish in a given section.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 13:17


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
The biggest influence of panfish I've seen is the bass population. If you have a pond with panfish and no bass, you'll have tiny panfish. Put a few bass in there and you'll find your panfish size goes way up. There's even a known ratio of panfish/bass, but I have to admit I don't know it. Dave, I have a feeling you might?


Yes there is, but the problem is counting all of them.

The biggest influence on panfish is predation. Some or even all of it can come from humans, but I'll admit that the bass do a better job.

The first two nutshell rules I said earlier are actually how you manage a pond for larger bass or more bass, but it also applies to panfish regardless if you have predator fish. The third rule doesn't really work with bass but it was meant as a joke anyway.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 13:49
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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2006/12/11 18:42
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There is a private pond that Sal and I used to stock with bass when we were younger. I was loaded with Sunfish, Crappie bass, Carp, Bluegills, ect.
Now all the that is left are the largemouth bass and Carp. BIG bass too. They ate all the panfish. I'd say they have an impact over time.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 13:57
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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I’ve fished a couple ponds like that.

First one was in Connecticut. The guy who took me there said there are so many bass that there are no bluegills left. I'm sure there were some big bass, but we caught mostly small ones. However, I did catch a large bluegill which surprised the heck out of the guy I was fishing with. I suspect I would have caught more if I had been targeting them all along.

I fished one other pond that may have been devoid of bluegills, but it was full of bullheads, and stunted bass, and the occasional large shiner. The pond also had some big carp. It was also choked with weeds, so it is possible it had some bluegills. We just weren’t catching any. However, it is possible that it didn't have them since the last time it was drained. It had a drain and could be drained completely like the one next to it was.

It is virtually impossible for bass to wipe out a bluegill population of there is any vegetation or structure. Like any other fish, habitat is important.

I'll describe one of my ponds in another message. It had big problems when I bought the place, and now isn't have bad for a small woods pond.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:36
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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2009/2/19 19:59
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What do bass and sunfish have to do with the thread? Wasn't it about wild trout?

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:46
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
What do bass and sunfish have to do with the thread? Wasn't it about wild trout?


I think the information is interesting, valuable, and highly relevant. (harvest, with respect to management) This thread is longer than any I've ever seen on this site, and the conversation is bound to deviate. It's the nature of discussion boards. I also don't think you have any authority to dictate the direction that it does take.

In other words, let it ride a bit...

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:49


Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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The one spectorfly talked about, is in our old neighborhood. I can assure you that there are no crappie, bluegill or sunfish left. There used to be so many that you could spit in the water and 50 of them would try to eat it. Not anymore. Its all bass and carp now. SOme of those bass are in the 25-30 + inch range and are probably averaging 5lbs +. I know of at least 2 of those fish that are probably 10 lbs easy.

The problem is that there is NO structure in that pond. It has a flat clay bottom and no structure. I remember we did sink one small christmas tree to try and create some. Also the majority of this pond is about 2-3 ft deep the entire way across. The one corner has some depth but thats it. The water is constantly muddy so you can see the fish real well except sometimes.

I can tell you those bass are hard to catch and are old. They rival some willey old browns ive seen. However during the bass spawn they become real easy. Perhaps this year I will visit the pond again and get some pics of giant bass for you guys. They are really amazing! The bigggest i caught in there was 32 inches. laying beside my yard stick. You could put your head in his mouth

I also find it interesting jay. No harm discussing it. Im not sure that the dynamics of moving water as compared to still water are even closely the same. And also the dynamics of wild trout populations as opposed to warm-water species. Either way...it cant hurt to explore it.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:51
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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My woods pond.

The pond was built on shale, so the level drops severely in the summer. It is also in the woods, so it has some acid problems.

I was told by a few people it had bass, but all I ever caught was stunted pumpkin seeds at first. However, I didn't really try that hard. The pond was also loaded with tadpoles and salamanders (and I do mean loaded, big tadpoles, too). So I suspected it didn't have any bass.

Second year: I noticed the PH was about 6.0 and that was after adding lime. So, I limed the area upstream where the runoff goes through before it enters the pond. This is usually dry. I put in a couple bass in the 12-14 inch range from my other pond. It has way too many that size. I also put in about 30 small channel catfish and one very large one to help cleanup the pumpkin seeds. I used a minnow trap to catch small pumpkin seeds and tossed them in the woods. That is all I caught in the traps along with tadpoles and salamanders. Saw the big cat a few times.

That winter: Tossed our Christmas tree on the ice.

Third year: After ice out, I found several of those catfish floating dead. Too many fish, for a wooded pond, and the ammonia and/or lack of O2 probably killed them. Christmas tree was floating all over the place, and eventually anchored itself on the shallow end wher it is completely out of the water when the pond goes low. But I suppose it helps in the spring when the small fish need cover the most. That year I also started catching small bass while targeting stunted pumpkinseeds with a small baited hook. I mean really small bass (3 inch). Some looked stunted. My guess is they were already there, too. The bass I threw in the year before was after the normal spawn, and I don’t think bass spawn more than once a year like pumpkin seeds and other panfish. But I suppose it is possible where there is an excessive amount of prey fish. I also threw in a couple dozen very small perch. Why not? They are toothy, and will eat pumpkinseeds (eventually).

Forth year: I’d occasionally fish this pond and started catching very fat perch in the 7-8 inch range, bass in the 9 inch range, and I even caught a couple very large bluegills (10 inch range), but they were not excessively fat. Even the pumpkin seeds were getting bigger. Those darn things seem to spawn constantly. By then, the salamander and tadpole population had shrunk significantly. Took a couple snapping turtles out, but there are most definitely more.

4.5th years: Planted my Christmas tree in the middle of the pond when it was iced over. It was about an 8 foot tree.

Last year (fifth year): Christmas tree landed on the bottom and standing upright because of concrete stand. About a foot of it sticking out of the water when the pond is full. I should have left the star on it. Saw a largemouth that was the size of a steelhead. I aint kidding you. It was huge. Also have several bass in it now 12”+. Caught several smaller bass in the 8-9 inch range while targeting the pumpkinseeds (to toss into the woods). Also caught a few perch in the 11-12 inch range out next to the Christmas tree. A couple swallowed the hook and they were tasty. To be honest, I didn’t fish it much, but the pond is obviously doing much better.

Last month I put in another Christmas tree. Anchored it with a brick so it will eventually sink to the bottom in the deep end. There is also other brush. Some was in there when I bought the place, some I added.

Moral of this story is, do not stock pumpkinseeds, or green sunfish in your pond.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:56
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
What do bass and sunfish have to do with the thread? Wasn't it about wild trout?


Who cares? this is a fly fishing site, not a trout site, and a few people asked.

But i do apologize for not putting it in a different thread.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 15:58
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams
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One important difference is that in wild trout streams, the fish can fill in to areas that other fish have involuntarily vacated.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 16:00
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
The problem is that there is NO structure in that pond. It has a flat clay bottom and no structure.


that explains it. It's like putting bluegills in a tank full of guppies. Not that I ever did that.

Quote:

I also find it interesting jay. No harm discussing it. Im not sure that the dynamics of moving water as compared to still water are even closely the same. And also the dynamics of wild trout populations as opposed to warm-water species. Either way...it cant hurt to explore it.


I'd never try to apply the one to the other. Like I said, different set of parameters. There is some overlap, but mother nature is a much bigger trump card when it comes to streams.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 16:11
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams

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2009/2/19 19:59
From Mont Co, Pa
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Quote:

jayL wrote:
Quote:

wildtrout2 wrote:
What do bass and sunfish have to do with the thread? Wasn't it about wild trout?


This thread is longer than any I've ever seen on this site, and the conversation is bound to deviate. It's the nature of discussion boards. I also don't think you have any authority to dictate the direction that it does take.

In other words, let it ride a bit...


I'm aware of the fact that it will deviate as per the second half of my post #286 (maybe you need to read it again, or for the first time) since it's been a lenghty one. But should it be taken over (highjacked) by a totally non related subject? Let the tread die with some dignity. It deserves it.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 18:03
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Re: Class A Wild Trout, Wilderness & WBT Enhancement Streams
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Allright - Benny wins his Milkbone dog biscuit!

Posted on: 2009/3/26 19:01



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