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Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18304
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Quote:

LetortAngler wrote:
"I am grateful that I have lived through the time that equiptment was refined, when introduced brown trout created their own native populations, and when restricted killing became the vogue in regulated areas. This period has been the foundation of dry fly fishing in America. It is saddening, however, to see my beloved srreams---Cedar Run, Big Spring, and the LeTort---suffer unnecessary deterioration from an instrument called "progress" "... Charles Fox


I don't care what Charley Fox says or any other name that you wish to drop. The part in bold is contradictory and never happened. Unless of course he considers this full blooded German (me) to be a Native American.

Just curious... How does he feel about carp?

Posted on: 2013/10/8 6:31
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Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed
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2006/9/9 17:32
From Gettysburg
Posts: 9127
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FD,
Sure, anyone can find a quote to support a point of view......but in fairness to Fox - who is revered around here - he lived and fished in PA during a time when streams had suffered greatly and many were indeed in decline. The term "native" back in the day was used more interchangeably with naturally reproducing. With respect to his views on non-native species: he was a huge fan of smallmouth bass and muskies (which aren't native to this part of PA) and was among the leading proponents of the state expansion of its muskie program. He didn't write much about carp nor did he ever tell me he fished for them......but my guess would be that, if he were still around today, that he would be fascinated with the current trend of FFing for carp. He was a far cry from being a snob - with respect to both fish and fishermen.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 6:51


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2006/12/13 9:28
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Quote:

Fishidiot wrote:
FD,
Sure, anyone can find a quote to support a point of view......but in fairness to Fox - who is revered around here - he lived and fished in PA during a time when streams had suffered greatly and many were indeed in decline. The term "native" back in the day was used more interchangeably with naturally reproducing. With respect to his views on non-native species: he was a huge fan of smallmouth bass and muskies (which aren't native to this part of PA) and was among the leading proponents of the state expansion of its muskie program. He didn't write much about carp nor did he ever tell me he fished for them......but my guess would be that, if he were still around today, that he would be fascinated with the current trend of FFing for carp. He was a far cry from being a snob - with respect to both fish and fishermen.


Here's a quarter...

His words are irrelevant to the subject matter and could actually be used to support brook trout enhancement.

And by the way, the carp question was purely rhetorical.

Edit: I meant no disrespect to Charley Fox. However, times are still changing.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 7:44

Edited by FarmerDave on 2013/10/8 8:09:25
Edited by FarmerDave on 2013/10/8 8:10:40
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7605
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Remove the rainbows from the stream and it won't happen anymore.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 8:09
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6114
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The PFBC paper at the link does not favor using a barrier, to manage for brook trout. And does favor allowing harvest of rainbows and browns to manage for brook trout.

But that paper is simply what PFBC staff is proposing. It is now open for public comment. And the commissioners have the final decision.

IMHO, their proposed plan of allowing harvest rainbows and browns would definitely not work. Two things would happen if that plan was adopted:
1) The really large rainbows would be quickly removed by people wanting trophies to hang on their walls.

2) The brook trout population would not benefit at all. The reason is that the number of medium sized rainbows would still be high enough to out-compete the brook trout.

So it would be a lose-lose proposition.

But using a barrier, along with periodic electrofishing removal, could make a very big difference for the brook trout. In the paper it says that the former barrier fell into disrepair and lost its effectiveness. They could have chosen to repair or rebuild it. They simply chose not to.

And it says that the escapement of fish from the hatchery was part of the problem. That problem is now gone. And in the intervening years, there are probably more good options for designing and building a barrier.

Regarding the occasional outlaw who would transfer fish above the barrier. That's a law enforcement issue. The people who fish certain streams often know each other. The WCO could ask around and find out who is doing that, and "have a talk" with them.

And if the occasional fish is put above the barrier, the periodic electrofishing would deal with that. As long as the rainbow numbers above the barrier were kept very low, the brook trout population would respond.

In some places where brookies have limestone waters mostly to themselves, there are brookies 12 inches to 15 inches, and even up 17 inches long. Pretty interesting potential, IMHO.

I think they should place the barrier where the old one was. In this way the brookie management zone would not be the entire regs area, just the upper part of it. And the rainbow fishery would continue below that.

As Big Spring Creek continues to recover, the wild trout fishery overall, including rainbows and browns can be extended downstream. And perhaps the brookie management zone could then be extended in the future also. But I think it will always be only the upper end of the creek.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 8:27


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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From down the block from the Letort.
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I think right now in the here and now, BigSpring now needs to left to her own devices before furthur 'managing' her. I think the habitat work that's been done is great, the fish are responding positively as evidenced by the surveys that have been done. If you actually read the reports instead of armchair quarterbacking from afar, you'll find that the balance of brookies to bows is roughly a 70/30% blend. And it's not all 'stunted' tiny little natives like you find in the mountains, there are some nice sized wild brookies in there as pointed out by Troutbert.

Let these fish go thru a few spawning cycles, let the stream find a new balance point, and then see how she looks. Doing anything right now regarding selective harvest or barriers or what have you is premature. Right now there is a great brook trout fishery in BigSpring, it just also happens that you can also catch some wonderful wild rainbows.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 9:39


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6434
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Well said tomi. I was there on Friday and both the brookies and bows are doing just fine. The new project looks great and the fish are starting to use the structure.

Let if go for about three years and see where the population dynamics fall.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 9:48
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Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2013/9/6 11:40
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Another well said for tomi

Posted on: 2013/10/8 14:40
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Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2008/3/20 16:37
From SCPA
Posts: 210
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Well put tomi. Just what I said to someone from BSWA. No comment back.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 14:59


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2009/10/15 13:45
From Eastern PA
Posts: 10290
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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:

No idea, because I have never fished Big Spring because I never had an urge to travel that far to fish for an introduced species.

But I would most definitely travel the distance to fish for large Brook trout in a limestone spring creek. PA would then have something TRULY unique and a true destination.


Another solid case for leaving the rainbows in Big Spring.

Posted on: 2013/10/8 15:03


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

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2012/10/24 19:22
From Da 'Berg, PA
Posts: 1457
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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:

No idea, because I have never fished Big Spring because I never had an urge to travel that far to fish for an introduced species.


okay... so we should harvest and wipe out the steelhead and lake run browns on the Elk, Walnut, mile's, and orchard creeks and Salmon river etc. because they are all invasive and thus have no intrinsic value to anglers, right ?

or do you think that some fly anglers would quite like to travel and fish for some introduced species that are still pretty rare in the East as whole ?

nah, lets just wipe out that fishery and replace it with the 1-2lb landlocks like Lake Champlain has....

Posted on: 2013/10/8 15:16


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2010/6/26 11:19
From Along the Lehigh Above the Gap
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Quote:

jdaddy wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:

No idea, because I have never fished Big Spring because I never had an urge to travel that far to fish for an introduced species.

But I would most definitely travel the distance to fish for large Brook trout in a limestone spring creek. PA would then have something TRULY unique and a true destination.


Another solid case for leaving the rainbows in Big Spring.


LMAO! +2

Posted on: 2013/10/8 15:27
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Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2007/4/23 20:53
From Carlisle PA
Posts: 75
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Just leave the damned stream and trout (regardless of species) alone! If you don't like the bow's fish somewhere else!

Posted on: 2013/10/8 18:49


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18304
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
I think right now in the here and now, BigSpring now needs to left to her own devices before furthur 'managing' her. I think the habitat work that's been done is great, the fish are responding positively as evidenced by the surveys that have been done. If you actually read the reports instead of armchair quarterbacking from afar, you'll find that the balance of brookies to bows is roughly a 70/30% blend. And it's not all 'stunted' tiny little natives like you find in the mountains, there are some nice sized wild brookies in there as pointed out by Troutbert.

Let these fish go thru a few spawning cycles, let the stream find a new balance point, and then see how she looks. Doing anything right now regarding selective harvest or barriers or what have you is premature. Right now there is a great brook trout fishery in BigSpring, it just also happens that you can also catch some wonderful wild rainbows.


To me, this argument makes the most sense. ^^^

Leave it alone for awhile.


Posted on: 2013/10/9 7:08
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18304
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Quote:

SBecker wrote:
Quote:

jdaddy wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:

No idea, because I have never fished Big Spring because I never had an urge to travel that far to fish for an introduced species.

But I would most definitely travel the distance to fish for large Brook trout in a limestone spring creek. PA would then have something TRULY unique and a true destination.


Another solid case for leaving the rainbows in Big Spring.


LMAO! +2


+3

Posted on: 2013/10/9 7:09
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--



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