Bamboo project rod?

[CLSports]

I just woke up this morning and decided I want to buy an inexpensive vintage bamboo rod that needs some restoration. My question is what should I be looking for?

I am thinking I want a rod from the 70's in about an 8'-0" or 8'-6" and 4 or 5 wt. I want something that is on the cheap side (under $100) to do a little restoration project with. I have never done any rod building work before, so that is why I want to keep the price low for my 1st project. I was thinking maybe just re-wrap the guides and a new reel seat and cork if necessary. I also want something that I can not only use, but I can consider a collectible as well.

I know I will have to buy some books and do some reading up on this, but I wanted to get a good idea of what brands/models to look for on ebay to get started. Any ones more rare than others? I see a lot of South Bend on there now and I assume they were mass produced in those years.

 

[JackM]

Southbend, Horrocks-Ibottson (HI, probably spelled the full name wrong), Montague, Montgomery Wards (no joke), were just a few of what I remember being called "production rods," that is, made for high output and sales, rather than appealing only to the officiando. You should do a little reading about the era and the rods. Some of these rods were very attractive and useful items, and if made well in that particular instance (the rod in your hand) can be very pleasant rods to fish often.

In this type of rod, unless you acquire something you know is rare, don't think "restoration," but think modification and beautification. You can put on a new realseat, new wraps, new finish and importantly new guides-- unless you plan to fish silk, in which case, your budget would be blown entirely on the line, forget the rod.

 

[Deuterium]

Here is a link to a webseller that usually has some handyman specials available.

http://www.codella.com/shop.aspx

 

[Lonewolve]

CL,
South Bend,Granger, Hoorocks-Ibbottson, are three that come to my mind, you can also look into cuttin off a few inches to shorten the length...remeber though most rods under 8' will cost alot of money , the others over that will be more avaiable also they usually use 6 weight lines more often than not.I have a Horrocks Ibbottson that i use for smallies and dry flies on The Lehigh And Delaware rivers...to be honest it is just for nostalgia,its kinda clunky doesn't track the best,but it catches fish and for my first bamboo its been restored and looks good enough for me.
If I may help you some more..Try:http://www.goldenwitch.com/
Russ Gooding and his wife Erica are great people and can help you.
Tight Wraps & Tight Lines
Rick Wallace
P.S. they are located in Stevens,Pennsylvania not far from Lancaster.also :http://www.codella.com/, and :http://clarksclassicflyrodforum.yuku.com/
hope thses help

 

[PennKev]

A vintage sub-8'6" in 4 or even 5wt is going to be a tough rod to find for under $100 unless it has some serious problems. Also the most affordable and numerous production rods were made well before the 70's. Think 1930's - 1950's. Graphite was poised to take out fiberglass in the 70's, lower end cane rods were already history.

Most of the under $100 rods will be 8' 6" or longer and 6wt or heavier. Some may handle a 5wt. A 4wt would have been an extremely light rod in that day and is a pretty rare find. The lighter line rods from that time are usually also shorter rods making them even more desirable causing prices to go up. Also, keep in mind that an 8" 6" or 9' cane 6wt is a VERY heavy rod compared to even the cheapest graphite rod.

Also, don't count on your first re-wrap/refurbish being valuable as a collectable. Rod building has a learning curve and it is unlikely that your first attempt will turn out beautiful. Usable yes, beautiful, no.


Kev

 

[tobewan77]

a good intro into bamboo are the South Bend rods.

The 7'6" 290 is a very good rod but you'll be probably spending ~$200 range. Ebay usually has some on it in various conditions.

The South Bend 323's as well as other 8'6" models are good rods as well but 290s are popular enough that if you don't like it there wouldn't be too much problem recouping most of your cost.

 

[gfen]

Perhaps a better option is to seek out a pre-made bamboo blank from one of the Chinese importers? I imagine there's also American makers, but I have no idea where they'd fall on the price scale.

 

[JoeE]

IMO, save the money and buy a blank. You can find them for around $200.00. That will give you plenty of work and you will not have to worry about delimitation and you will end up with a better rod than the Blue Collar Cane you paid 75.00-200.00. Unless you feel like removing old varnish, reel seat, cork and additional sanding to prepare the rod to start refinishing and it doesn’t sound like to want to restore.

Joe E

 

[tobewan77]

Until i hear trending reports contrary to past history, Chinese blanks are terrible, they delam and take sets almost instantly.

A lot of the blue collar cane is only considered "blue collar" because these companies built a lot of them, doesn't necessarily say anything about their quality (except maybe their components, that is where most saved cost not the tapers or the blanks).

Hook and Hackle has some American blanks i'd trust, but a 7' is still ~$255.

You don't always have to totally redo an old rod. Sometimes an additional coat of varnish is all that is needed. Check around, you can get quality around $200 in the length you desire. As mentioned before, Codella is a good, but not cheap place to look. Also post a WTB ad at Clarks Classic Fly Rod forum. You'll get a lot of responses with your specifications.

 

[JeffK]

I would do some reading and research since the "blue collar" bamboo rods are all over the map. The big builders built rods from $.85 to $35 - you want one on the better end. The mass produced rods don't get the respect from collectors, but the better ones fish OK. Most rods will be about 9' 5 wt to 6 wt though. Some of the real old ones from about 1900 with all the intermediate wraps can work out too and some are surprisingly light. Best to learn the heavier from the lighter rod models. Get a decent rod to start with, because if you put a lot of time into a clunker it will not be worth it. Handle a few rods before you buy one and you will start noticing things that make a good rod.

You want all pieces the same length (well the tips being an inch or two short wouldn't hurt much), no delaminations and no "clicking" in the ferrules. In older rods sometimes the glue that holds the ferrules to the rod dries out and leaves the ferrule loose, but it wouldn't fall off since they are typically pinned to the rod. The ferrule rocking on the rod can damage the cane in short order. Getting the pin out and reglueing the ferrule isn't the worst thing in the world if you are comfortable making a simple jig or fixture and using small pin punchs. If that scares you make sure the ferrules don't click. Make sure the cane doesn't show any signs of dark dry rot. However, plenty of rods have worn or rusty guides - they are easy to replace.

In general, the better rods featured nickel silver hardware and the cheaper rods used plated brass. An old unmarked rod with nickel silver hardware will generally be OK.

Learn to identify the 1950's Japanese boxed set rods that are around by the gazillions. Avoid them like the plague.

Fixing up an old bamboo rod is fun and you can end up with a smooth, gentle casting rod. However, it is a fair amount of work so start with something worthwhile. In addition, the cost of spar varnish, guides, wrapping thread etc all start to add up - so start with something OK.

 

[FarmerDave]

Lots of good advice, and many different directions.

I'm a fan of rebuilding the old production rods for use although I haven't done much in the last 8 or 9 years. If you chose to go that route, pick up something cheap for the first one and don't worry about collectability. If you do a nice job but don't like the action, they still make nice wall hangers (decorations).

And I did say rebuild, not restore. Jack had some good advice on that. but don't do a rebuild on anything that has reasonable collector value because if you rebuild rather than restore, you destroy much of not all the collectability.

However, if you do chose to restore, rather than rebuild for modern lines, old silk lines can also be restored. I have a few lying around. I've also heard that you can get new silk lines for "fairly" cheap now, but I only heard that. I have not observed that. They might even make non-silk lines suitable for the old cane rods.

JeffK dissed the post war Japanese rods. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that. It depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for a pretty rod or one that is somewhat collectible, than I agree that those definitely are not a good choice and should be avoided. Many (of not all) of those were just milled and slapped together and have gaps and in general don't look good if you look closely. But many actually have decent action if you are just looking for something to fish with. So, if you are looking for a rod to practice on and don't care about destroying toe collector value and just want it for fishing, ... it might not be a bad choice. They are fairly easy to identify once you have seen a few. The milling quality definitely sucked.

I'm pretty sure my steelhead rod is post war Japanese, but there were no markings when i got it. It had gaps that sucked up the varnish when refinishing. I think I ended up using tongue oil until it was done "sucking" and then several coats of spar over that. Hell, I even used some wood filler. It was awhile ago. It looks alright, but frankly I don't care that it isn't the prettiest rod. I like the action for steelhead. It's a relatively slow action 9 foot and tosses a 6 or 7 weight line well. I use a 7.

I'm guessing those boxed sets (with the box) can be had for between $100 and $200 with that unused condition being the higher end. I wouldn't touch any of those. but I might buy a used one without the box if I could get it for no more than $25. My steelhead rod was actually a freebee. It was part of a bundle of rods that I bought. I probably have less than $70 bucks in to components in it and all that is original is the cane itself.

I'd say the three biggest big mass producers are/were

Horrocks-Ibbotson
Montague
South Bend

There were several smaller produces, and a ton of brand labeled rods.

for example, I have had a couple Shakespeare that were made by South Bend.

Montague made a ton of rods for other people. King Fishers are quite common, and I think they were sold by Montgomery Wards or Sears.

H-I at one time was the largest tackle manufacturer in the world.

All three of those rod manufacturers made some good rods that are somewhat collectable now, but they also made some very inexpensive rods that have very little collector value. for example, if you pick up a Montague flash, that is a good one pt practice on. I think I have 3.

Then you jump up a little bit in quality. Grangers are collectible. Some more than others. I once sold a Divine for a friend and I think I got about $250 for it. He garbage picked it. He also garbage picked an old H-I. It's a very nice rod, probably early to mid 1930s in very nice shape, but I set a $100 reserve on it. When it didn't sell, he gave it to me for selling the Divine. At the time I figured it was worth about $75 and that ended up being the high bid. It would probably sell for over $100 today. For it's age, it is in really nice shape and definitely restorable.

I only talked about rods that I have or have had, and I only scratched the surface.

I never got into the more expensive stuff because I'd be half afraid to use them.

There is a lot of labor in stripping an old rod down to the blank and rebuilding. You have to love doing it. Otherwise you would be further ahead to buy a blank.

No matter which route you take, keep checking back here. Advise is free, and many of us like giving it.

Disclaimer: I am not trying to sell any rods. I just like the old stuff.

 

[CLSports]

Thanks for all of the great advice! I think I may go with a shorter rod (7 or 7.5') and just make it a restoration project, rather than a complete rebuild. I will let you know what I find.

 

[JackM]

I dont want to shift your whole focus, but my first bamboo rod I acquired was a stiff broomstick. Nothing wrong with it 'per se", but it had lost some of the mid section and was probably like 7-weight to begin with.

I think I tricked Bruno into trading it for a cheap reel at the JAM in Galeton, PA, circa whotheheckknowswhen.

The next rod is the diversion. I acquired a nine foot rod that I removed the butt and replaced the real seat and all on the upper 2/3. It turned out 6', slow as Old Uncle Joe, and perfect for a three-weight for brookies.

Decide if you want a piece of history or something to fish. Back to my original point, though, with respect to production rods, even among same brand, taper, year of production, etc., you cannot expect consistency. You may find a dud or a gem.

I feel a talented caster can adapt to the rod. So, my advice is to take this information into consideration, take a chance and learn to love it. This can be a formula for happpiness in many endevours.

 

[tobewan77]

Just an FYI, not my rod but Heddon's are quality rods:
http://clarksclassicflyrodforum.yuku.com/topic/48603/FS-8-6-3-2-Skilton-s-Higrade-Heddon-Project-Rod#.Tm1Nv9Q_qdc

 

[JoeE]

This is over at Clarke's:
South Bend 260 7'6" 2/1 #5
This rod is in very good cosmetic condition. It looks as though it's been barely used, if at all.
I list it as a "project rod" for two reasons:
1.) I am noticing a small "click" at the ferrule, which should probably be re-set to avoid any breakage from future use.
2.) The rod only has 4 guides. Certainly a re-outfitting of the rod with more (8-9, total) guides would be beneficial.
Other than that the rod is in great shape, and would make for a very nice restoration project, that wouldn't get too involved.
Original grip (composite cork) and reel seat are in good, used condition.
Original storage sack is present, no tube.
Offered at $100 (shipping, insurance included CONUS)

New set of ferrules: ~40
Guide set with stripper~20
Sandpaper~10
Varnish~12
Rod: 100

Total: 172.00 This would be an excellent fishable rod.

Joe E