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Re: "wild" rainbows

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The purpose of the "they aren't really natives" rhetoric is to discredit brook trout conservation efforts.

How's that for a "withering rebuke?"

(I'm not talking about you pcray.)

Posted on: 2009/6/25 12:17


Re: "wild" rainbows
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I think you are right but the question does present itself whether in the event that the speculation about whether there is a significant population of Pennsylvania-strain brookies become conclusive prrof that there is not, will brookie advocates be forced to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows?

Posted on: 2009/6/25 12:45
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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Quote:
Chaz wrote:
And you'll find no one willing to say that all of our brookies are from hatchery stock. I believe that most if not all of the brookies in NC streams are of heritage strains. There is a pretty good likely hood that even some streams in SE PA have heritage strains.


I agree with Chaz's post. I personally know of one stream in SE PA that has a strain of brookies that have their own look and coloring to them and whole heatedly believe these brookies to be of a heritage strain . The small mountain stream has never been stocked once by the PFBC and still has an impassable small damn at it's mouth preventing any possible stocked fish from going up into it.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 12:55
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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Quote:

JackM wrote:
I think you are right but the question does present itself whether in the event that the speculation about whether there is a significant population of Pennsylvania-strain brookies become conclusive prrof that there is not, will brookie advocates be forced to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows?


It would be a good question IF it panned out that way. Fortunately it strongly appears that simply is not the case.

But heck, I'd be happy to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows right now. Unfortunately the current PF&BC policies favor both of them over brook trout. So, the real question is when it is proven that there are vast amounts of native genetics out there (and early studies certainly indicate that), will we improve policy to bring brookies up to the same level as the others?

Posted on: 2009/6/25 13:50
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Re: "wild" rainbows
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Dave, I'm not taking the position that there are not PA-strain genetics out there. In fact, I believe there probably are significant populations. But tell me how it is that policies or practices favor browns and/or bows?

Posted on: 2009/6/25 13:53
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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FarmerDave wrote:

But heck, I'd be happy to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows right now. Unfortunately the current PF&BC policies favor both of them over brook trout. So, the real question is when it is proven that there are vast amounts of native genetics out there (and early studies certainly indicate that), will we improve policy to bring brookies up to the same level as the others?


No, nor should we, assuming you are speaking of returning them to their original range. There are thriving brown trout fisheries in places where brookies formerly populated.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 13:53


Re: "wild" rainbows

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, will we improve policy to bring brookies up to the same level as the others?"
when they can handle ten degrees warmer water and 20% more pollution
Unfortunately its not going to happen.Probably
One of the luckiest people I ever met was a Ranch Family in Montana
that had a limestoner start on their property and run through their back yard.
Carried a full head of beautiful brook trout.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 13:59
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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Quote:

jayL wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:

But heck, I'd be happy to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows right now. Unfortunately the current PF&BC policies favor both of them over brook trout. So, the real question is when it is proven that there are vast amounts of native genetics out there (and early studies certainly indicate that), will we improve policy to bring brookies up to the same level as the others?


No, nor should we, assuming you are speaking of returning them to their original range. There are thriving brown trout fisheries in places where brookies formerly populated.


I'm not.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 13:59
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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Nearby New Jersey seems to have native strains of brookies in the little unstocked tributaries of the Raritan River, so I see no reason why PA shouldn't. Many people thought the deforestation and overfishing of the 1880's did native brookies in (I don't think PA can match NJ in land abuse), but that does not seem to be the case.

The work to support this was a DNA study of brookies in NJ streams done by NJ's trout biologist, Pat Hamilton, to get her masters degree from East Stroudsburg State.

The first evidence was that ANOVA showed that the DNA of the brookies in each stream was unique - you can tell which stream a brookie belongs in from its DNA. The stocked streams did show some measure of hatchery genes in the mix. Next each watershed had a unique character and within a watershed the adjacent streams had the most affinity. The data is what would be expected for recolonization after the last glacial period from refuges to the south.

This was an unexpected result and those of us who followed the work were pleasantly surprised to find remnants of heritage strain brook trout in the most crowded state in the union. Unfortunately, brook trout have been extirpated in the majority of their native range in NJ.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 14:00


Re: "wild" rainbows

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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
I'm not.


Define "same level as the others".

Posted on: 2009/6/25 14:15


Re: "wild" rainbows

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I don't think I said bring the brook trout up to the eual of the other two. I said change policies so it doesn't favor the non-native species.

to suggest returning the brook trout to it's former range would be foolish, and my momma raised no fools. Well, she raised one or two, but but I'mnot one of them.

for about 100 years, the PF&BC stocked the crap out of everything with browns and rainbows because they were cheaper to raise. a century of abuse did a lot of those in and it is now too late. In my lifetime, Brook trout were stocked mainly in streams that wouldn't hold the other two (acid).

Pete, the temperatures are not that different between the three. It is more like 1 or 2 degrees.

I'll admit the PF&BC is doing much better thah they did 20, 30, 40 years ago. no real complaints. I was spouting off.

It would be nice to return a couple limestone streams back to brook trout fisheries, but I wouldn't hold my breath. But think of the economic benefit of having 1 or 2 two of those limestone streams returned to brook trout.

20 years or so ago they tried to return Little Sandy to brook trout, but they made a halfassed attempt and the locals complained enough that they dropped it. However, they did it by poisoning all the trout. i would never advocate that. We are not talking snakeheads here.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 14:15
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: "wild" rainbows

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No, nor should we, assuming you are speaking of returning them to their original range. There are thriving brown trout fisheries in places where brookies formerly populated.


I totally agree JayL. Good point. But where they are thriving we should be conserving that range. Good post though.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 14:17
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Re: "wild" rainbows

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Is the lack of evidence the evidence of a lack? Not that I was there 200 years ago to see, but isn't there documentation of a salmonid in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic region which we now call a Brook Trout? I don't have any idea what hlas been done to determine "pure" or indigenous strains of fish. How about smallmouth bass? Any genetic parsing done with them?
Ehhh... THis is a non-issue
Syl

Posted on: 2009/6/25 14:21


Re: "wild" rainbows

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Quote:

JackM wrote:
I think you are right but the question does present itself whether in the event that the speculation about whether there is a significant population of Pennsylvania-strain brookies become conclusive prrof that there is not, will brookie advocates be forced to acknowledge the equality of wild browns and rainbows?


Brook trout, whether the genetics are PA genetics, or VT or NY or some mixture, are still brook trout. They are the same species. Which means that the genetics they have in common are much greater than the genetics that differ. And brook trout is the species of salmonid native to PA streams.

With wild browns and rainbows it's a whole different situation. They are DIFFERENT SPECIES.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 15:57


Re: "wild" rainbows
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Gee, thanks, Mr. Obvious.

Posted on: 2009/6/25 15:59
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