Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 »


ID Help Please

Joined:
2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1944
Offline
Just looking for a best guess ID on this guy. Picture was taken in mid November on a Lebanon County freestone stream. They're about a size 16-18 or so. There's quite a bit of them on the stream in question and I generally fish a size 16 or 18 Red Quill if fish are rising to them...would just like to know what it actually is.

Good idea for an additional forum by the way...I plan to learn a lot here.

Attach file:



jpg  11-12-11 002.JPG (87.51 KB)
5058_4f0f83a8a83ad.jpg 423X317 px

Posted on: 2012/1/12 20:09


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
Offline
There are several different species and even families of mayfly that I lump under the name "little blue winged olive". They all have solid grey wings and body can be any where from dark brown to light olive.

I always carry a box of imitations to match this group. The box includes nymphs (pheasant tails and fur bodied), winged wets (some of the species dive to lay eggs), emergers, dry flys, and spinners. All in sizes 18-22.

On rich streams some of the species have three generations per year spring/summer/fall.

A size 18 red quill is an excellent imitation.

If I had to guess, I would say Baetis genus.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 8:52


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13589
Offline
This is a difficult one. I'm thinkin I see a hind wing there. If so, I've narrowed it down to the following:

Family: Ephemerellidae
Genus: Attenella, Drunella, Ephemerella, or Seratella

Family: Leptophlebiidae
Genus: Leptophlebia or Paraleptophlebia

With the November timing, narrowing it down further is difficult. Confused individuals aren't uncommon. But when you say there's a lot of them, do you mean that there's a lot of them in November, or are the better numbers at another time of year?

I wanted to say Baetis genus too like shortrod, based on timing. Our fall BWO's are mostly Baetis. But there's one problem. All bugs in the Baetis genus have 2 tails, not 3. It's one thing for a 3 tailed bug to lose a tail and look like it has only 2, leading to a misidentification. It's quite another to grow an extra one!


Posted on: 2012/1/13 9:28


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2008/8/24 20:26
From Mount Joy, PA
Posts: 2238
Offline
Size and color, size and color, size and color!

Posted on: 2012/1/13 9:39


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2006/9/21 0:02
From Pittsburgh
Posts: 4306
Offline
Because of the 3 tails - I would guess either a blue quill, or one very confused hendrickson

Posted on: 2012/1/13 9:48


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1944
Offline
Thanks for the discussion guys. My initial thought was some type of Baetis as well given the size and the timing, but I am FAR from an expert in these matters and I trust pcray's knowledge on the number of tails.

pcray - I guess "a lot" is a relative term that I should have better quantified. I'd say it's a lot for a small, relatively infertile freestoner, but it's not as if I've ever seen a massive hatch of these guys. They're present to some degree more days than not when I'm on that stream (except for the dead of Winter), and there's enough of them to take notice. There aren't fish rising everywhere in unison to them, but you'll see several get taken on top throughout the day if they're present. It is by far the most prevalent and consistent Mayfly on this stream.

The day in November that I took the picture was probably the highest density of any day I've seen them though...there was a good half dozen on my truck bed when I was packing up to leave. That said, I've seen them in the Spring, Summer, and early Fall too. I probably fish this stream more than any other in the area, but I don't think I've ever noticed this particular bug on any of its neighboring streams...could be wrong though.

Generally with this size and general color I would just assume BWO and tie one on, but when I caught one and got a good look I noticed the reddish/brown tint to the body and thought the Red Quill would be the better imitation.


Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:05


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13589
Offline
Eh, as far as the imitation, size is usually important. But color, not quite as much. I find a number of factors much more important. Stuff like how they emerge, how long they float as duns, and when they will return as spinners. You nail down the species or at least genus, and loads of useful info becomes available. Partially for getting the right imitation. But more for when to target the stream, whether to look for risers in slower or faster water, where to expect the nymphs, etc.

I guess I'm with dryflyguy here. I'm going with a Paralep of some sort (blue quills). The species most commonly associated with blue quills in PA are adoptiva (April time frame) and mollis and guttata (June typically). There are a lot of species though, and several are reported in the fall. For example, troutnut says debilis is locally abundant in the East and occurs mainly in the fall. I've never seen one, nor is there a picture for comparison. Descriptors all fit.

For the entire genus, the nymphs swim to the surface and float a ways, before emerging onto the surface and floating a ways more before taking to the air. Floating nymphs are effective, as are emergers and duns, you kinda have to judge what the fish are doing. Nymphs are crawlers, but unlike most crawlers, are pretty good swimmers and will be found in both fast and slow water. Spinner behavior is species specific.

So if that ID is correct, not a ton can be gleaned from genus specific traits, they're pretty standard mayflies. I'd just point out not to forget about emergers and floating nymphs for them. If you struggle with duns, give it a shot, they might be keying on nymphs just before they emerge.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:32


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
Offline
Quote:

wgmiller wrote:
Size and color, size and color, size and color!


Pretty much. Im just curious, but why do people care. Fish certainly don't. This is an area of study for biologist, not fly fisherman.

Mayfly/Caddis/Stonefly/Other, Size, Color. It's that simple.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:43


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1944
Offline
I'd buy that...I looked around on Troutnut and a couple other places a bit, and I think you guys have it pegged...

Leptophlebiidae Paraleptophlebia Adoptiva (Blue Quill) definitely matches my picture pretty closely, and that's good enough for me. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys.


Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:45


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13589
Offline
wsender,

I rank color WAY down on the list. Coming before that:

1. Timing. Are you seeing the beginning or tail end of the hatch per time of year. What about per time of day? Important to know whether or not to stay that extra hour or two, and whether to return in a week.

2. Spinner behavior. Evening, daytime, overnight? How many hours/days after the hatch? Do they drop eggs from the sky and fall somewhere on shore, or do they fall spent? Does it occur over riffles or pools? Cause, when I see a decent hatch, I'm calculating if and when they will fall in mass to meet em.

3. Hatch behavior. Ok, I saw a bug. Some mayflies crawl to shore and emerge there, like a stonefly. Duns and emergers are pretty much useless for them, but swimming nymphs towards banks can be deadly! Some mayflies break out of their shucks on the bottom, "swim" to the surface, struggle to break through, but once they do they're air-borne. For them, you want to leans towards emergers. For others, the nymph swims to the surface and floats just under the film as it emerges. For them, an emerger is less effective than an unweighted nymph fished in the film. And all bugs float for various amounts of time.

4. Specific location. Does the nymph spend it's time in fast, rocky water, or slow, silty water? When you nymph leading up to the hatch, you choose accordingly. And a lot of times they migrate to hatch, say, a slow water nymph will move to the riffles in the days before emergence. Those are the best nymphing hatches, movement exposes them! Does the hatch occur in tailouts, riffles, etc? What about the spinner fall?

I'd rank all of those above color, personally. Armed with that info, some PT's, and an assortment of various Adams ties, I'll take that over having the right "color" every time.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:58


Re: ID Help Please
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 9069
Offline
Blue quill likely. Here is pic of Palaleptophlebia debilis.

Link to source: http://www.pbase.com/tmurray74/image/67660936


Attach file:



jpg  Blue Quiill - Paraleptophlebia debilis.jpg (140.87 KB)
53_4f11719728d83.jpg 601X360 px

Posted on: 2012/1/13 10:59

Edited by afishinado on 2012/1/14 7:14:15


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2006/9/13 22:36
From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
Posts: 5606
Offline

Ephemerella invaria
http://www.pbase.com/tmurray74/image/113554882
A late season hatch most likely a local phenomenon
took awhile looking at a lot of photos and this is the best one, i blew up the original and saw the second wing pair. Hard to see but they are there.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 11:22
_________________
sandfly

So many Fish, So little time !!!
from the outer edge of nowhere
fly tying and fishing ghillie..
https://www.facebook.com/BigMeadowsFlyShop




Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2007/1/30 10:05
From Jersey Shore, PA
Posts: 484
Offline
While I am personally very reluctant to attempt identification down to species except in the most obvious case, considering what appears as a small elongated hind wing, size, body color and wing color, I would venture that this is a Paraleptophlebia debilis. I've seen this critter on other streams at the same time of the year and I've noticed a slightly lighter body and wing color than what I've found on earlier species. Wings have a slightly cream cast to their dun color.

In my discussions with some of the top entomolgists in the field they will readily admit that in the majority of cases identification down to species level is beyond that which is possible with the naked eye. Without looking at thegenetalia of the image (spinner) under a microscope we're making a best guess. Not my words; theirs.

Dave R.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 13:47


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2007/1/30 10:05
From Jersey Shore, PA
Posts: 484
Offline
Typo error; not image, imago or spinner. Sorry 'bout that.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 13:50


Re: ID Help Please

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13589
Offline
Summary:

Old Lefty, afish, dryflyguy, and myself all say Blue Quill, of the Paraleptophlebia genus.

I brought up the species debilis as having been reported as a fall hatch. Afish did me one better and backed it up with a very good picture. Old Lefty did him one better, and backed it up with personal experience. All three of us agree exact species ID is difficult, but stated or implied debilis as a guess.

That's probably about as much consensus as we'll ever get in this forum.

Paraleptophlebia debilis - blue quill

Sandfly is the holdout, suggesting ephemerella invaria, aka PA's standard sulphur. All of the biological markers do fit. Timing doesn't, but he is correct in that local phenomena do happen with that species.

Posted on: 2012/1/13 14:33



(1) 2 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
Will you be fly fishing this autumn?
Yes
No
Thinking about it
_PL_TOTALVOTES
The poll will close at 2014/10/31 17:56
1 Comment





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com